Kings in some decks only

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 18 Jan 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

catz	18 Jan 2005
I know that this must be an oft asked question - but I have noticed that Kings are used in some decks and books - and not in others. I am new so please pardon this possibly ignorant question. What is the rationale of not having them in a deck - or vice-a-versa. ? Can someone point me to a place that might have information about this ? I find "reading" court cards the most difficult - and this makes it more confusing !

Thirteen	18 Jan 2005
catz wrote: I know that this must be an oft asked question - but I have noticed that Kings are used in some decks and books - and not in others. I am new so please pardon this possibly ignorant question. What is the rationale of not having them in a deck - or vice-a-versa. ? The Kings aren't really "missing"--in some decks they're "knights" instead of Kings. The confusion relates to whether you're using a Rider-Waite or Crowley clone--clone meaning which deck the deck you're using based itself on. Rider-Waite is Kings, Queens, Knights and Pages. Crowley is Knights, Queens, Princes and Princesses. The differences relate to how these court cards are viewed. With Rider-Waite there's a feeling of hierarchy in the court cards. Pages ("earth") are the lowest, smallest, they often stand for children or an immature state. If you were starting a new job, just learning how to do it, you'd be a page. Knights ("air") are teens--aggressive youths, the "voice" (air) of the group--or, in a job, the next step up, an assistant, and Queens (water)-King (fire) are mature rulers, the ones running the business as manager (queen) and owner (king). The King is the "originator" the first spark, if you will, the idea man. The queen is the one who develops the idea--waters it. With the Crowley courts, on the other hand, there is an attempt at yin-yang balance. Prince and Princesses are equally youthful, the differences being their male/female vibe, not their status. Princes are "air" and in motion (usually shown driving a chariot) and Princesses are "earth" (standing still). Queens and knights are yin-yang equals as well, the Queen being "water" and the Knight being "Fire." The Queen is enthroned, and rules from a fixed position--she is the mother and ruler of the kingdom; the Knight is on horseback and "commands" while in motion. He protects the queen's kingdom and puts into action her will. Each has strengths and weaknesses that balance out to a unified whole when together. Court cards, as a whole, are confusing and take longer to understand than almost any other cards in the deck. So don't worry if you're still muddled by them.

Nevada	18 Jan 2005
In some decks, you'll find courts named Page (or Valet), Knight (or Knave), Queen, King. In others the same court cards will be ranked Princess, Prince, Queen, Knight. In the latter version, the Knight carries the same rank as the King in the former. What you really want to look at is how the courts are ranked in the deck. Here I'm comparing the RWS to the Thoth: RWS . . . Thoth Page . . . Princess Knight . . . Prince Queen . . . Queen King . . . . Knight Nevada

Fudugazi	20 Jan 2005
Nevada wrote: In some decks, you'll find courts named Page (or Valet), Knight (or Knave), Queen, King. In others the same court cards will be ranked Princess, Prince, Queen, Knight. Actually, the fuller picture would be: RWS.....Thoth.....Marseille Page . . . Princess.....Valet Knight . . . Prince......Cavalier or Chevalier (Horseman or Knight) Queen . . . Queen......Reyne (Queen) King . . . . Knight.......Roy (King) Anyone want to add the Italian-based decks to get a full picture? (the very old Italian decks are all unnamed) There are also some deck-specific variants like, I've recently discovered in a reading done for me, in the alchemical tarot, where valet/pages/princesses are Ladies. What is more relevant for people reading with different decks is: are all these really equivalent? Beyond the obvious gender shift? Notice, for instance, the difference between a valet and a princess, in social status and responsibility.

Thirteen	20 Jan 2005
Helvetica wrote: What is more relevant for people reading with different decks is: are all these really equivalent? Beyond the obvious gender shift? Notice, for instance, the difference between a valet and a princess, in social status and responsibility. A very good point and a very good question. I would say "no." There is a difference in deck interpetation between a princess and a "page" or "valet." A princess indicates an immature "queen"--someone who will one day rule from a throne. There is a feeling that they have serious responsiblities, though still young and in need of instruction. The Page, on the other hand, might get up to Knight--but let's face it, no King starts as a page, he starts as a "prince." More important, their jobs are very different. The princess is treated with respect, taught dancing, languages and social graces. But no matter how good or bad she is at these lessons, a queen she will one day be. Birth alone entitles her to that. A Page works away in the mail room doing the grunt work no one else wants to do, proving he can go the distance, become a Knight one day. If he proves to be too weak or lazy, he could get kicked out of the castle. Birth alone does not entitle him to a knighthood. Put it another way, no page is destined to be a knight--they need to work for it. But a princess is destined to be a queen...and they don't often need to work for it. Now here's the real question: Does the valet do the same job as the page in the French deck? Or is it a valet as we know the word: a person who helps important people dress, etc.? If that's the case, then he's even more rarified because he's not moving up. A valet stays a valet.

tarotbear	20 Jan 2005
I always question when someone changes the Court line-up. Do they jobs change or do you just ignore the designations and 'read' them like 'normal?' In the Goddess tarot the Queens rank higher than the kings -- does that affect their jobs? Does the Querent give a damn what the artist wanted to convey? Does the reader shift what they see based on the artist's concepts, particularly when they drasticaly deviate from what the meaning of the card usually is? In the Cosmic Tribe tarot there are Princesses, Princes, knights and Queens. Do the knights get read as Kings or as knights? They have different jobs to do.

Fudugazi	20 Jan 2005
Thirteen wrote: Now here's the real question: Does the valet do the same job as the page in the French deck? Or is it a valet as we know the word: a person who helps important people dress, etc.? If that's the case, then he's even more rarified because he's not moving up. A valet stays a valet. It depends how far you go back. If you look at the far past - the Middle Ages when Tarot was born, the word valet (in French) was another word for page. If you look more recently, the 17th and 18th centuries, when Tarot developed before the Levi revolution, it gradually started to mean simply "servant". But there's a funny thing about Valets as servants: they represented, in the popular culture of the age, native wit and cleverness that can overcome the heavy stupidity of the master. In the 18th Century, when ideas of egalitarianism took root, they even became the romantic lead (think of Figaro) opposite a cynical and unfaithful Lord (Almaviva). Still clever and living off their wits, rather than educated, but very interesting characters. I think this meaning is linked to the Valet/page cards (because pages also had the "naughty but clever" association, even though their social status was above that of servant), but not to the Princess. I have trouble with "princess" which means to me someting rather spoilt. But I wonder what it meant to Crowley (coherently)? And what it means to people who read now?

catz	21 Jan 2005
Just want to follow up with thanks for the responses. Very helpful and elucidating. I have to say that the longer I use this deck (Golden) the more accurate my 'answers' have become. Just ordered some other decks too - I appreciate your help !

Thirteen	23 Jan 2005
tarotbear wrote: In the Goddess tarot the Queens rank higher than the kings -- does that affect their jobs? Does the Querent give a damn what the artist wanted to convey? Does the reader shift what they see based on the artist's concepts, particularly when they drasticaly deviate from what the meaning of the card usually is? I always feel that there's little point to using different decks if you're going to interpet all decks pretty much the same way. To my mind, if you use the Goddess Tarot than you should, well, get into the spirit of that deck, into how it was intended and rank the Queens higher than the Kings. Now this isn't to say that the reader is ever a slave to the deck, far from it. If inspiration hits, then it hits and the reader must bow to that first and formost, even if in doing so you ignore a deviation in deck meaning. But I've got a lot of decks, and when I do a reading for someone, I usually pick a deck that feels right *for them.* This usually means that something conveyed in the artworks feels right to me, either for one particular person, or for a group of readings. In short, it's not likely I'm going to ignore the deviation--to the contrary, the deviation is going to inspire me, work for me, help me in that/those readings. At least, that's how I see it. Different decks have different feelings to them, and it seems pointless to ignore those differences rather than make use of the richness in deck variation, the different emphasises of meaning given to them by their artist/creators.

The Kings in some decks only thread was originally posted on 18 Jan 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.