Dark Cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

firemaiden	19 Feb 2005
If I could have put the title of this in Gothic Writing I would have. Some find the Fool to be a dark card. Some have said the World is sometimes dark, that it can signify finality. Once in a while we are reminded that a certain card can be very dark, that normally we see as light. Of course it depends on context.... But... What are some of the cards which have more often then not, in your readings shown up as very dark cards?

ncefafn	19 Feb 2005
For me the dark cards are the traditionally "happily ever after" cards -- the Ten of Cups, the Ten of Pentacles, and the Nine of Cups. In the aforementioned Tens, things are just too rosy, and those happy RWS pictures make you forget that tens are about transitioning out of a cycle. Meaning, in short, that the happy times are merely transitory. As for the Nine of Cups, the supposed "wish" card, in practice that has never been true with me. When I get the Nine of Cups in a personal reading, it usually foretells a disaster of some kind. Confining my analysis strictly to the image on RWS clones, this is a guy with an abundance of alcohol and no one to share it with. He's a closet drinker. So why? Is he cut off from others? Does he drink to overcompensate for his lack of social skills? Does he have all this abundance and just not want to share? If your "wish" is to drink until you pass out, then yes, I guess this could be the wish card. The Devil is supposed to be dark, but for me, he can also represent sex, which is bouncy-bouncy fun time, as well as rebelliousness, which in my country is notoriously lacking. Everyone's too afraid to thumb their nose at the tinhorn god in power, for fear they'll be shipped off to Little Gitmo. And the Tower is just as welcome a sight as the Ten of Swords. Yes it's painful, but at last you can see the light. Once you've acknowledged you've screwed up, you can work on making things better. But then, I"m a Libra, so I've always been contrary.

TemperanceAngel	19 Feb 2005
ncefafn wrote: As for the Nine of Cups, the supposed "wish" card, in practice that has never been true with me. Now I like that you mention this as I find that card, well...don't know if I would say dark, BUT....if I ever tell a client it's the wish fulfillment card I then tell them to be careful what you wish for, as it might just come true.... And the Ten of Cups(RWS): idealistic dreaming? Dark cards, hmmmmm, maybe it's that term I don't like. In RWS The Tower, Devil and Nine of Swords are colored black, but I don't necessarily see them as 'dark', thay can be quite uplifting at time, and heavens forbid, even truthful.... Sometimes it can be the simple things: Three of Cups: too much partying there...

firemaiden	19 Feb 2005
That was fascinating, ncefafn :D I have sometimes seen the nine of cups interpreted as an excess of drinking. The nine of cups on my Animal Lords deck has a sleeping fox in his hole, curled up in front of a wine barrel, with an empty cup at his side.

psychic sue	21 Feb 2005
I always think the 9 of pentacles has dark connotations. Although she stands in a lovely garden, she stands alone. She has sacrificed something for her happiness. Like the bird on her hand, she cannot fly away. Sad.

RedMaple	21 Feb 2005
Well, the 9 of Swords is still the darkest card in the deck for me. It is so full of pain, nightmares, deep anguish for another for whom you can do nothing but weep.

firemaiden	21 Feb 2005
Yes, the nine of swords, LOL. Youch! But the nine of pentacles? Now there is one I've never thought of as dark, exactly. Interesting.

ncefafn	21 Feb 2005
I've always seen the woman in the Nine of Pents as a widow, but not one who's necessarily unhappy about the situation.

MercyMe	21 Feb 2005
A couple of cards lately have represented people being very underhanded -- the 7 of Swords, the 5 of Swords -- and hence have been disappointing cards to see because of what they mean in a certain situation/relationship in my life. I know they don't always mean someone behaving badly, but they certainly have lately in my readings. ~Mercy

psychic sue	22 Feb 2005
Maybe the 9 of Pents is significant for me, because being left on your own with 2 children, you certainly do have to make personal sacrifices, even though you may build up material things around you, for your children's sake. I suppose it is the card I identify with.

Stregaverde	22 Feb 2005
I have a different reply today than I would have yesterday, thanks to the New Vision deck. I have no doubt that this deck is going to change my entire outlook on the RWS system. Nine of Cups shows what's happening behind the banquet table--two young boys are playing with toys and ignoring a young chubby girl, who is consoling herself by stuffing herself with food from a plate. This reiterates Kim's idea of isolation and overindulgence--interesting! The Chariot shows a male and female slave chained to the back of the chariot, forced to follow behind, while a crowd cheers on the triumphant champion driving it. The man is looking at the woman with concern. Domination and mastery, indeed! I've always had a problem with the Chariot, but then I have a problem with Authority in general. :D The Hanged Man shows an angry mob pointing, shouting and jeering at the man as he hangs. It also shows that his hands are in fact bound to the pole from behind. King of Swords is facing a sad-looking couple who have their heads bent to him--they look like supplicants of some type. The most chilling thing, though, is that lying exposed behind his throne is a naked baby and a sword--the baby is not covered or sheltered in any way. (There are other babies behind thrones in this deck, but they are always being cared for, so the difference is marked.) Both Strength and the Hermit have ominous looking snakes sneaking under their robes from behind--a diamond-marked tan snake for Strength, a black one for the Hermit. Watch out! I agree with ncefafn on the 10 of Swords, change is good, even when it hurts. And I think it's the Secret Tarot that has a small dog cowering from the family in the 10 of Pents--all is not as it seems with that happy home.

yusia	22 Feb 2005
For me four of swords is really a dark card. I try to convince myself to see it as a retreat but what really comes to my mind is a requiem and a wax pallor of the dead.

Moongold	22 Feb 2005
IX Wands is quite dark for me. The man in the image looks wounded, defensive and apprehensive. He is completely alone. It is as if the Wands energy has been spent yet again in useless conflict..To me it is a sad card - wasted and misdirected energy. IV Cups is a dark card as well. It signifies depression. The person sitting at the foot of the tree has lost all interest in life. Even an angel cannot rekindle his interest. VII Cups is also dark. A shrouded, dark and faceless figure stares at 7 Cups of Illusion. This is far more the card of addiction than 9 Cups. ( 9 Cups to me is simply over indulgence in anything - not just drink. The frightening thing about VII Cups is that the firgure is already in a shroud. He has already lost himself. He seeks life again through illusion, not reality. Sad. And finally, X Pentacles. This is not commonly seen as dark and perhaps I see it as more mysterious than dark. We have an ordinary scene overlaidwith ten pentacles. The pentacles are prominent and seem to scream at me that everything is not always as it seems. In fact, frequently things are not as they seem. Lastly, I just do not like 6 Pentacles. Hate what it says about giving. :)

WolfSpirit	26 Feb 2005
Not always "dark" cards but cards that make me cautious... Knight of wands He may promise a lot of fun and excitement, but where is he when you actually need someone ? You can't expect too much commitment from him, and if you complain he will just get bored and move on. Don't trust him too much... 6 of cups can mean good things, but can also mean clinging to the past too much; not being able to move on, not being in the present, but just thinking about the past.

Chibi pic pic	26 Feb 2005
Stregaverde, I have the New Vision deck too, and for some reason these interpretations of the cards make the seemingly nice cards not so nice or the bad-looking cards seem even worse, like the 9 of Swords when you have a green demon lunging at the person in bed. When I first saw that card, shivers went down my spine. That was also the card that intrigued me to buy the deck. Also, on the 5 of Pentacles, is the view from inside of the church? If so, it's kind of like the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence type of thing. Interesting. Is it bad that I'm more familiar with the New Vision deck than the original deck? Everytime someone mentions the RWS, I always see the New Vision picture in my head. Maybe I should actually buy the other deck and compare the two...

Fudugazi	27 Feb 2005
I don't see any card as dark per se, or light per se. People here have mentioned seemingly happy or successful cards as coming out dark (is it only in some readings, or in all?). The reverse is equally true - no reason why the Colman-Smith 5 of pentacles, for instance, should always be dark: it shows two people helping each other - it can be about finding friends during a difficult period. I find this approach to cards more imaginative and true than saying - The Devil is always dark, The World always happy, etc. It means we respond to the card in the circumstances we are reading, and not trying to apply learnt meanings. I have sometimes seen the Ace of Swords come out as a dark card - too much intellectualisation, using cleverness and the force of the mind where the heart would be more appropriate. You can cut people with a sword. Likewise, the lovely Ace of Cups can be a bad sign if what you really need is some good old-fashioned thinking and problem-solving, and tackling a situation with swift decision, like a sword thrust. The Hanged Man can be dark or consoling, depending on circumstances. It can mean - you're stuck; or - make the best of this waiting time; or - you will have to sacrifice something (or have already done so). Hanging upside down is a form of torture, after all. But how you respond to torture says all about you. The darkness of the Fool was already mentioned in another thread. Particularly in the Colman-Smith version and its derivatives, the Magician gives me the shivers. No-one should have so much power, the dangers of abuse are too great. On the other hand, well-used, it is a wonder - it is Churchill raising his country to fight on alone with his magic words, Newton reinventing the world, Gandalf rousing Aragorn. Actually, the Lord of the Rings gives us a good illustration of the different uses to which magic power can be put - in Saruman (who is corrupted by it) and in Gandalf (who fights the temptation of corruption and rises to the full potential of goodness that power also contains). As to the Chariot in the New Vision mentioned by Stregaverde: what if the two people at the back of the Chariot were deposed tyrants? - Marcos and his wife, Ceausescu and his wife, Milosevic and his wife? The Chariot, there, could represent the people getting rid of their tyrants and cheering about it. It all depends on the reading circumstances, no? The Moon is sometimes seen as dark. And it can be if we are afraid of the unconscious, or if our unconscious contains lots of darkness. But imagination - also contained in that card - can transform darkness into art, so that you sublimate fear. And the moon is so beautiful, it can console like a mother or a lover. Or betray. I think the Queen of Coins can be a very dark card - if she gives in to all that materialism. In the Marseille deck it is explicit: she is fixated on her coin. In the Colman-Smith, it is more subtle - but one can have too much of a good thing. A sad thing has happened to a dear old friend of mine in the past few years, after marriage and children. Her home is lovely and very welcoming. She's a loving mother, wife and friend. But she is so comfortable, materially, she can no longer look beyond her own little world. Once we were out shopping together, and I mentioned I preferred to buy Fair Trade goods, as it was intolerable to me that the small producers should suffer (children out of school, no healthcare, etc.) so I can have a slightly cheaper cup of coffee, and the large distributors make pots of money or large first world producers dump their good on poor countries. She answered - "I don't care how they live: I don't want to know, only my family's wellbeing matters to me." To me, that is the dark side of the queen of coins. I think all the Tarot can be dark, or light, depending on the moment of reading, on the circumstances, on what is needed in life.

Athara	27 Feb 2005
Swords. They scare me. Though it's usually a warning or advice, and not all of them are 'bad', they're still my 'dark cards'...

Fudugazi	27 Feb 2005
Athara wrote: Swords. They scare me. Though it's usually a warning or advice, and not all of them are 'bad', they're still my 'dark cards'... Yesterday in the car I heard a fascinating radio programme about Samurai mangas. Some of these mangas, rather than just showing war and violence, explore the idea of "the sword of the mind" - the one that appears when the samurai needs its, the one the samurai really must learn how to wield. The sword of the mind also bears upon the samurai's relationship with the other - his social and intellectual interractions. Swords are about thought, the life of the mind. Are you afraid of thinking ;) ?

ros	27 Feb 2005
4 of Pentacles I find dark sometimes. It's like dead air & smothering when this card arrives. The person is so still, the energy around the person is nill and there is a void. No one knows what will happen next or what the next move will be. Too much of nothing makes chaos almost like control. Almost a card of mind control.

Sinner	27 Feb 2005
I'd have thought of the traditional dark cards: 1) 10 of swords - RWS: man lying dead in a pool of his own blood with 10 swords in his back. 2) Tower - destrction, death etc. 3) 9 of swords - lots of Pain 4) 3 of swords - just Pain 5) Death - points to death, which also points to pain. 6) Devil - the darkness, chaos, pain etc.

Athara	27 Feb 2005
Helvetica wrote: Yesterday in the car I heard a fascinating radio programme about Samurai mangas. Some of these mangas, rather than just showing war and violence, explore the idea of "the sword of the mind" - the one that appears when the samurai needs its, the one the samurai really must learn how to wield. The sword of the mind also bears upon the samurai's relationship with the other - his social and intellectual interractions. Swords are about thought, the life of the mind. Are you afraid of thinking ;) ? Hm, interesting concept. Thanks for that! Nope, I'm not afraid of thinking. But the swords most often tell me to change, that I'm going in the wrong direction (not all of them do, though!). And I AM afraid of change, especially when I'm the one initiating it...

Fudugazi	27 Feb 2005
Athara wrote: I'm not afraid of thinking. But the swords most often tell me to change, that I'm going in the wrong direction (not all of them do, though!). And I AM afraid of change, especially when I'm the one initiating it... It was a rhetorical question ;) No-one is afraid of thinking ... What I was getting to, in a roudabout way, was that maybe these swords are giving you a way of dealing with change - in your mind. Because fear always happens in the mind, after all, and so the remedy is there too - a bit like the samurai's sword of the mind that appears when he needs it. From darkness to light in one single card. Tarot's amazing that way - it can give you the sickness and the cure all in one.

Francesca	28 Feb 2005
ncefafn wrote: For me the dark cards are the traditionally "happily ever after" cards -- the Ten of Cups, the Ten of Pentacles, and the Nine of Cups. In the aforementioned Tens, things are just too rosy, and those happy RWS pictures make you forget that tens are about transitioning out of a cycle. Meaning, in short, that the happy times are merely transitory. As for the Nine of Cups, the supposed "wish" card, in practice that has never been true with me. When I get the Nine of Cups in a personal reading, it usually foretells a disaster of some kind. Confining my analysis strictly to the image on RWS clones, this is a guy with an abundance of alcohol and no one to share it with. He's a closet drinker. So why? Is he cut off from others? Does he drink to overcompensate for his lack of social skills? Does he have all this abundance and just not want to share? If your "wish" is to drink until you pass out, then yes, I guess this could be the wish card. The Devil is supposed to be dark, but for me, he can also represent sex, which is bouncy-bouncy fun time, as well as rebelliousness, which in my country is notoriously lacking. Everyone's too afraid to thumb their nose at the tinhorn god in power, for fear they'll be shipped off to Little Gitmo. And the Tower is just as welcome a sight as the Ten of Swords. Yes it's painful, but at last you can see the light. Once you've acknowledged you've screwed up, you can work on making things better. But then, I"m a Libra, so I've always been contrary. Finally, another contratian! The tens make me nervous as well, especially the cups and pents. They strike me as illusions. The ten of Cups I see as a pie in the sky sort of thing and the family in the 10 of pents seems like they might have as much debt and unhappiness as they do material goods. I see more hope in the devil than those two tens because the chains in the RW decks are easily slipped off, the slavery is as much an illusion as all those cups in the 10 of cups. I find the 6's not necessarily dark, but cards that bear scrutiny and questions when they come up. I am also a Libra. francesca

Imagemaker	28 Feb 2005
Quote: Swords are about thought, This is always my interpretation--what anguish do we cause ourselves, what deception, what torment with our thoughts. There's a fascinating book by Byron Katie, Loving What Is, in which one uses questions to explore a problem. The third question is: (variation of) who would you be, what would you do, without that thought? It's changed my mind or behavior on many an occasion! (I'm a Libra, too--a plethora of scales around here!)

Fudugazi	28 Feb 2005
Imagemaker wrote: This is always my interpretation--what anguish do we cause ourselves, what deception, what torment with our thoughts. There's a fascinating book by Byron Katie, Loving What Is, in which one uses questions to explore a problem. The third question is: (variation of) who would you be, what would you do, without that thought? Thanks for the tip - I'll look it up. Yes we do torture ourselves with our minds - I forget the number of times I have woken up sweating in the night! That's definitely one of my key associations for the 9 of Swords in the Colman-Smith and clones, for example! And yet, our thoughts hold the key to counter those moments. I think the Sword cards reflect that as well, that's why I don't necessarily see them as dark cards (in Marseille I don't see them as dark cards at all, unless they show a blockage somewhere) - more as cards to cut through the kind of thoughts we worry ourselves with. That said, people do have sad events in their lives. But again, how we face up to them is really the measure of our strength - and that happens in the mind too. I have never had a sad event prefigured by Sword cards: these have mostly shown me how my mind reacts to such moments, and how to reason myself out of the anguish of a difficult moment. I always think of Anne Frank when I think of how the mind can defeat the worst events life throws at us. Anne died, murdered by the Nazis, of course, but before that, for the two years she was in hiding, she triumphed. I think she would have used the Tarot Swords as weapons to fight depression and fear, rather than "dark cards" condemning her. Because I see the Tarot as a mirror for humanity, I can't see any card as inherently dark or light. All cards can be both (even at the same time) or either.

caridwen	01 Mar 2005
I agree that no one card is particularly dark or light - it depends. Each card has its light/dark. However, The Tower; Devil; Five of Cups; Three of Swords; Five/Seven of Swords; Seven of Cups; Moon; Nine of Swords are some of the cards I don't like for my own readings. Yes, I know they can help but their message bodes ill. Another card I don't like is the Six of Cups - I find it really creepy for some reason...

Fudugazi	01 Mar 2005
caridwen wrote: However, The Tower; Devil; Five of Cups; Three of Swords; Five/Seven of Swords; Seven of Cups; Moon; Nine of Swords are some of the cards I don't like for my own readings. Yes, I know they can help but their message bodes ill.... maybe they bode ill to you because you have decided, ahead of time, that they are dark cards? I've had the Tower come to me for falling love suddenly ... and the Devil for some great sex ;) :)

caridwen	01 Mar 2005
Helvetica wrote: maybe they bode ill to you because you have decided, ahead of time, that they are dark cards? I've had the Tower come to me for falling love suddenly ... and the Devil for some great sex ;) :) Not really - they've come up to indicate or predicate a very difficult time in my life. Maybe because of our natures we programme our cards whether we mean to or not.:)

Fudugazi	01 Mar 2005
caridwen wrote: Not really - they've come up to indicate or predicate a very difficult time in my life. Maybe because of our natures we programme our cards whether we mean to or not.:) yes, I think you are right. And yet difficult times happen to us all, whatever our natures. And dealing with them, too. I am sometimes at loss to know what to think when I receive powerful cards like the Tower, or the 7 of Swords in readings I do for myself. Is it warning, or preparation, or the tool to deal with trouble, or actually a good thing, in some circumstances? I don't want to be an ostrich, pretend all is A-OK if crap is flying my way; but I don't want to be a gloom-dweller either and sabotage myself. Actually the same goes for all cards: it's all too easy to loose ourselves in the happiness of the 6 of cups.... It's much easier when I read for other people.

caridwen	01 Mar 2005
Helvetica wrote: yes, I think you are right. And yet difficult times happen to us all, whatever our natures. And dealing with them, too. I am sometimes at loss to know what to think when I receive powerful cards like the Tower, or the 7 of Swords in readings I do for myself. Is it warning, or preparation, or the tool to deal with trouble, or actually a good thing, in some circumstances? I don't want to be an ostrich, pretend all is A-OK if crap is flying my way; but I don't want to be a gloom-dweller either and sabotage myself. Actually the same goes for all cards: it's all too easy to loose ourselves in the happiness of the 6 of cups.... It's much easier when I read for other people. It's difficult for me to read for myself as well. I remember another tarot myth, alongside the 'never buy your own cards' one: never read for yourself. I always took it to mean bad luck or something from the way it was said and obviously ignored it as soon as I had my sticky paws on a deck. But I'm seeing what it means - confusion. I think my least favourite card is The Tower - my it's come up for some very difficult situations indeed. Totally out of the blue shocks that have knocked me for six. It's come up for me recently and I'm wondering what is going to hit me right between the eyes. Not much I can do but wait. The Moon literally means confusion for me. Times when I'm totally at a loss and lost.

psychic sue	01 Mar 2005
I find it virtually impossible to read for myself. That's why this forum is so great. Other people are happy to help you out. x

Moongold	01 Mar 2005
It seems that you are saying, Helvetica and Caridwen,that it may be possible to project some of our own inner fears on to the cards, maybe even unconsciously. I have been thinking about this a great deal since purchasing the Hudes deck recently. In many ways this is an exquisite deck. The art work is beautiful but the mood of the deck overall is pervaded with poignant sadness. The Five Swords appeared in a reading for me on the weekend which I posted in "Your Readings". In this image, a man is murdered. Nowhere in the RWS does one see such explicit violence from one human being to another. The card is to do with anger. The particular situation in the reading I realised much later, was to do with anger at its very base so the cards held much meaning. This entire deck seems to hold much "feeling" for me. Art (and music) can evoke feelings at the deepest levels, and that has always been my experience. I realised yesterday, on along trip to the country and in a dream which followed, that I can in fact work with this deck now that I understand it and myself a little better. This also gets to the essence of reading for self. The more self-aware I am the more accurate the message from the cards seems.

The Dark Cards thread was originally posted on 19 Feb 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.