The Papess and The Pope

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Feb 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Major Tom	20 Feb 2005
I've been contemplating the connection between what is conventionally accepted as the two spiritual authorities of the trumps. The Pope tells us that there are traditional holidays. The Papess knows when they are. ;) Oddly enough, they're traditionally seen as enemies. :laugh: It goes back to the ancients this emnity, the conflict between belief and knowledge. Some folks find this balance difficult - usually with difficulties of either belief or knowledge. ;) Men and women have always been able to work together, even if they don't always chose to do so. The Papess and The Pope see the same thing from a different perspective.

Thirteen	20 Feb 2005
I suspect the enemy aspect is less due to male/female or even knowledge/belief than it is due to the "papess" name. The Pope is the highest spiritual authority of a male dominated religion. In Catholicism, women cannot be priests let alone rise to Pope; nuns are considered secondary and subservant to their Male counterparts and they're expected to OBEY and serve those male counterparts without question. However fond you are of the Marseille deck, this is one of its weaknesses: "Papess," refering to the scandalous tale of Pope Joan, has always been seen as wrong, abominable even, from the persepctive of a religion that reveres a "Pope" as second only to God. There cannot be a papess to stand equal to him mentally/spiritually--he being a singular authority--OR remind him of his sexuality--celibacy being part of his holiness (and women, in such a religion, being seen as "Eve," the cause of the fall of man). I think, therefore, that if Catholic terms are to be used, these two would seem more complimentary, more friendly to one another, if they were called "Priest" and "Nun" or "Abby" and "Abbess." Hence, the problem, IMHO, is not with male and female, it's with a religion that insists on the domination of one sex over the other--not only in spiritual leaders, but in how the divine is viewed--as a "Father" or "son" rather than as a "Father and Mother" for example. A religion, any religion, that maintains inequality of the sexes in regards to who can or cannot be a spiritual authority and/or the image of the divine, will always make one of these two cards seem "Wrong" and an enemy as compared to the other. A religion which accords equality of the sexes, on the other hand, and views the divine as male and female (or asexual), would see having BOTH a "priestess" and "Priest" as necessary and complimentary, not antithetical.

kwaw	20 Feb 2005
I have always wondered why in later decks the popesse and pope became Juno and Jupiter. I know this was in recognition of the disapproval of the church, what I mean is why Juno/Jupiter? Does this change provide a clue as to how papesse'pope were viewed at the time? Does the change from popesse to juno incorporate some aspects of the figure popesse as could be replaced by the figure Juno?In which case does this tell us anything about the origins of the figure of the popesse itself? Although I have no prove as such, my intuition tells me that this was no accident, that there was a connection between the popesse and what it represented and its replacement 'Juno'. Kwaw

Diana	20 Feb 2005
Thirteen wrote: However fond you are of the Marseille deck, this is one of its weaknesses: "Papess," refering to the scandalous tale of Pope Joan, has always been seen as wrong, abominable even, from the persepctive of a religion that reveres a "Pope" as second only to God. Thirteen: It is HIGHLY unlikely that the Marseilles Papess refers to the Pope Joan anectode (whose existence is not taken seriously by most historians). The Tarot of Marseilles was not conceived by fans of the Roman Catholic Church anyway so literal meanings of "Pope" and "Papess" can be also ignored. The Tarot of Marseilles is symbolic. One needs to go beyond the veil.. If one stands outside looking in, one will never even smell its sweet odour, let alone walk on its paths. I suggest you spend some time in the Historical section and read the long thread that was started up a month or two ago on La Papess, as well as previous threads. And forget about Pope Joan. And also forget about literal interpretations. Tarot is not literal. Well at least, not the Tarot of Marseilles. Just because there is a Pope, doesn't mean that it's a Roman Catholic deck!!!! (LOL!!!) (If it were, I certainly wouldn't be using it.)

Thirteen	20 Feb 2005
Diana wrote: And forget about Pope Joan. And also forget about literal interpretations. Tarot is not literal. Well at least, not the Tarot of Marseilles. Just because there is a Pope, doesn't mean that it's a Roman Catholic deck!!!! I may be able to forget about Pope Joan, but I'm afraid I can't disassociate "Pope" from Roman Catholic. Many religions use the word "priest" or "Nun," etc, to indicate spiritual folk. But "Pope" is pretty darn exclusive. So far as I know, one and only one religion uses it and uses it to indicate their highest and singular religious authority. No, Tarot is not literal. But words have connotations and come with baggage. If you can ignore that baggage, more power to you. But I can't. A Pope, is a Pope, is a Pope. There's only one, and unlike the "Emperor" or "Hanged Man" he exists, in the flesh; his picture is in my newspaper. It's a great deal harder to "unliteralize" such a card. I certainly can't and I think, from what I often hear about this card from other people, that my problem with it, with it's name, is not in the least uncommon.

Dark Inquisitor	20 Feb 2005
And what better way to tick off the church than remind them of the 'pope' that "laid an egg" in the middle of the street? It would have been much less inflammatory to title the card abbess. But so much less funny.

spoonbender	20 Feb 2005
Thirteen wrote: A Pope, is a Pope, is a Pope. There's only one, and unlike the "Emperor" or "Hanged Man" he exists, in the flesh; his picture is in my newspaper. Well that's odd - I thought there was more than "only one" Pope in history :eek:! If your Tarot of Marseilles has Arcanum V titled "Pope John Paul II", there's something seriously wrong with your deck. Do you also have problems with The Emperor because you cannot but associate him with Napoleon Bonaparte? Who cares about the old senile man in the Vatican today? The Pope stands for an idea: that of a spiritual father, one who is there to give guidance and advice. In the Marseilles, he is shown blessing two figures who have come to see him - such a loving gesture! Have you ever heard of the 16th century play 'Marieken van Nieumeghen'? In that play, the protagonist Marieken travels to the Pope in Rome after living with the Devil for years. The Pope is her last chance, but with his help, she can find forgiveness and peace. I think The Pope is one of the most beautiful cards in the Tarot of Marseilles. Quote: However fond you are of the Marseille deck, this is one of its weaknesses: "Papess," (snip) has always been seen as wrong, abominable even, from the persepctive of a religion that reveres a "Pope" as second only to God. Excuse me? I think The Papess is one of the Marseilles' strengths! A woman has been given the title of Papess - imagine what a shock that must have been for the Church! I wonder if you have you looked at the card before? Do you honestly feel that she is portrayed as "scandalous", "wrong" or "abominable"? Hell no! She is depicted in such a respectful manner, as a strong and honorable woman. And on top of that, she is the only figure in the entire Tarot de Marseille who has been given a book. Imagine back then how precious books were and how few there were who could read them. Books gave POWER. I'm shocked that someone would actually say this card is one of the Marseilles' weaknesses :eek:!! How sad that you cannot see past the Tarot of Marseilles as the ultra-catholic deck you believe it to be.

Dark Inquisitor	20 Feb 2005
spoonbender wrote: Well that's odd - I thought there was more than "only one" Pope in history :eek:! The pope is a position of God's representative on earth . The individual person is not relevant. I think the reference is to the position of pope . spoonbender wrote: Who cares about the old senile man in the Vatican today? That statement is probably very offensive to some Catholics here. spoonbender wrote: Excuse me? I think The Papess is one of the Marseilles' strengths ! That may depend your view of the deck. If one thinks the deck was made to support the church and/or Christian spiritual teachings, then a papess card would be the weakest link in that theory. spoonbender wrote: How sad that you cannot see past the Tarot of Marseilles as the ultra-catholic deck you believe it to be. I am not sure that is what is being said, though I may be wrong. But the Catholic church (with the only position of pope) in the middle ages was The One and Only True Church, (according to them of course) and all others were heretics.It had amassed wealth and power like no other church could even dream of. (Does any of this have anything to do with Major Tom's original question? )

Rusty Neon	20 Feb 2005
spoonbender wrote: Who cares about the old senile man in the Vatican today? I can't believe I just read this. The present incumbent of the chair of St. Peter is frail and suffers from Parkinson's disease, but he is not senile. I admire his bravery and strength of conviction. He fights for what he believes in, although others are free to disagree with his views.

kwaw	20 Feb 2005
Thirteen wrote: But "Pope" is pretty darn exclusive. So far as I know, one and only one religion uses it and uses it to indicate their highest and singular religious authority. Pope comes from Papa which means father; are you sure Catholism is the only religion to call their head 'father'? Kwaw

Rusty Neon	20 Feb 2005
Thirteen wrote: I may be able to forget about Pope Joan, but I'm afraid I can't disassociate "Pope" from Roman Catholic. Many religions use the word "priest" or "Nun," etc, to indicate spiritual folk. If you look in most English dictionaries, you'll see that "pope" is also a term for a Russian Orthodox Church parish priest. Quote: but "Pope" is pretty darn exclusive. So far as I know, one and only one religion uses it and uses it to indicate their highest and singular religious authority. The head of the Coptic church is also called Pope. www.copticpope.org His Holiness Pope Shenouda III

kwaw	20 Feb 2005
kwaw wrote: I have always wondered why in later decks the popesse and pope became Juno and Jupiter. I know this was in recognition of the disapproval of the church, what I mean is why Juno/Jupiter? Does this change provide a clue as to how papesse'pope were viewed at the time? Does the change from popesse to juno incorporate some aspects of the figure popesse as could be replaced by the figure Juno?In which case does this tell us anything about the origins of the figure of the popesse itself? Although I have no prove as such, my intuition tells me that this was no accident, that there was a connection between the popesse and what it represented and its replacement 'Juno'. Kwaw Ross Caldwell has posted a listing from Andrea Alciato's 1543 "Parergon Juris" over at TarotL [if you haven't seen it yet it is very interesting and worth popping over to tarotl to read his full posting] in which Alciato calls the papessa card 'Flaminica' which again connects this card with Juno. The Flaminica was part of a high ranking priestly couple, the wife of the Flamen Dialis, Priest of Jupiter, the highest ranking of the Flamens. Among other duties the priestess officiated at ceremonies in honour of Juno every month. Kwaw

psychic sue	21 Feb 2005
Going back to Major Tom's orginal post, I'd like to contribute my ramblings on this subject. Before I start, as this seems to have roused some controversy, I'd like to point out that that these views are just what I understand, and would be happy to be corrected by anyone who knows better. I thought it was widely understood that Pope Joan was most likely a legend. However, in the late 13th Century an Italian group (can't remember the name so someone please feel free to remind me) believed that their founder would die and rise again in 1300 to begin a new age in which women would be popes. They jumped ahead and named Manfreda Visconti as the first female pope. The Church then duly burned her as a heretic in 1300 (the same year as this new age was to begin). About 150 years later the same Visconti family commissioned the first set of tarot cards as we know them. Amongst the un-numbered and un-named trumps appeared a picture of a woman, later referred to as the "pappess". The name was then changed on future decks to The High Priestess, referring to the belief that tarot originated from the Egyption Isis religion. I expect you have all read the Da Vinci code and the understand the idea of the Goddess symbol being repressed by the church. Some feel that Mary was elevated to a high status in the church to appease the goddess worshipping people. And its interesting to note that Jesus himself brought into the Church the "womanly" emotions of love and compassion. I think the two cards in the pack simply represent male and female, ying ang yang, balance. And look what has happened to the world since the male has dominated over the female. War upon war. There is an imbalance. I too found the comments about the present pope offensive. I am not a practising catholic anymore, but I have no doubt that the pope is a good and caring man, and that many people find love compassion and comfort from the church. Please let's respect each others views and beliefs.

Fudugazi	21 Feb 2005
Thirteen wrote: However fond you are of the Marseille deck, this is one of its weaknesses: "Papess," refering to the scandalous tale of Pope Joan, has always been seen as wrong, abominable even, from the persepctive of a religion that reveres a "Pope" as second only to God. There cannot be a papess to stand equal to him mentally/spiritually--he being a singular authority--OR remind him of his sexuality--celibacy being part of his holiness (and women, in such a religion, being seen as "Eve," the cause of the fall of man). I think, therefore, that if Catholic terms are to be used, these two would seem more complimentary, more friendly to one another, if they were called "Priest" and "Nun" or "Abby" and "Abbess.". It's my understanding that II- La Papesse card does not refer to Pope Joan at all. As for "if Catholic terms are to be used" - I would say, that the Marseille, as a deck that is seeped in Medieval and Renaissance Christian iconography and terminology, would naturally use such terms as generic terms meaning male and femal spiritual leaders, in the same way that you and I might use the term "monk" or "nun" (which are Catholic words originally) to refer to buddhists in contemplative religious orders. That does not mean that "Le Pape" and "La Papesse" in the Tarot de Marseille refer to real popes and popesses.

Dark Inquisitor	21 Feb 2005
psychic sue wrote: I thought it was widely understood that Pope Joan was most likely a legend. I don't think everyone goes along with that. I also think it's one of those stories you couldn't make up if you tried. Nonetheless, the Devil is also a "legend" , as is Judgement day, as are angels of Temperance, etc. So it may be the symbol that is the point .And as a symbol, the Papess is notorious and probably very aggravating to a church that suppresses women. As for the Pope being a generic term - in America, we have The White House. Where all the presidents reside. If you talk about The White House , there is no doubt or need to explain what you are referring to. We also have millions of white houses.

Fudugazi	21 Feb 2005
Rusty Neon wrote: If you look in most English dictionaries, you'll see that "pope" is also a term for a Russian Orthodox Church parish priest. The head of the Coptic church is also called Pope. www.copticpope.org His Holiness Pope Shenouda III Greek priests are called popes.

temperlyne	21 Feb 2005
I'm not a historian and know very little of traditional tarots like the marseille... but I had a thought about the pope and papess... What if papess is not supposed to be taken literally and is just meant to signify she is the opposite of the pope? If the pope is the male, dominating search for ethics and moral he would represent the believe that he translates the laws of god and presents them to mankind who has to obay or be considered sinners. If the papess is his opposite, she could represent the early gnostic christians who believed that sin is a human invention resulting from moral laws and ethics. Rather than listen to the dominating words of so called heads of the church, they went to find their own truths and ethics. The papess does not rely on written words and interpretations to find out what is the truth and what is good or evil, she explores the darkside herself and does not concern herself with ethics. hope this makes some sense..

Thirteen	21 Feb 2005
spoonbender wrote: Do you also have problems with The Emperor because you cannot but associate him with Napoleon Bonaparte? Why would I associate "The Emperor" with Bonaparte? Is France the only place in the history of the world where dictators were named "Emperor?" But here, let's try this as it's closer to what I mean. We'll call a card: "Der Fuhrer." Now that Just means, "The leader" in german--but I suspect that if I named the Empeor card "Der Fuhrer" instead, some folk would object because that title was used by one particular group in recent history, and only that group. You might well identify that title with the beliefs of that group, might you not? Quote: I think The Pope is one of the most beautiful cards in the Tarot of Marseilles. Bully for you. Frankly, I don't want to get into this argument as it's pretty pointless and it's been done to death elsewhere; this is the point: the Pope is a title for a man who weilds ultimate authority in Rome over a particular Religion. Russia and Coptic give it a little leeway, but they're still male dominated Christian religions. However many Popes there have been, the word "POPE" doesn't refer to a spiritual Buddist leader, or Hindu leader, or Inca leader. If it has that universal use, as "Emperor" does, perhaps I'd see the card differently. That is the reason I feel that the Papess and the Pope are seen as Major Tom said he saw them, as "enemies." My response was to that "feeling" of his. Agree or disagree as you like, but my point is that you can't simply erase with a wish the implications of "Pope." However you feel about the Pope or Papess, most folk do not have those feelings because THEY, unlike you, only know about that long line of old men (popes) in Rome. An Emperor is some powerful guy consigned to history--positive or negative as one might see Napoleon or Nero or a mythic Emperor of China or Japan or any other country in the thousands around the globe who have had an Emperor on their throne. In a lot of cases, what I read here opens my eyes to certain cards. But in this case, wagging your finger at me, discussing history or the senility of the Pope (Whether he is or not doesn't change that there IS a Pope and women are still excluded from power in the church) only tells me how YOU see the card...it doesn't change how I see it. Quote: How sad that you cannot see past the Tarot of Marseilles as the ultra-catholic deck you believe it to be. Don't put words in my mouth. I don't see it as "ultra-catholic"--I merely believe that the Pope and Papess are words so exclusive to Catholicism that they often make it difficult for SOME of us to see them as EQUAL, universal, non-antithetical spiritual leaders rather than specific spiritual leaders.

psychic sue	21 Feb 2005
Thirteen wrote: In a lot of cases, what I read here opens my eyes to certain cards. But in this case, wagging your finger at me, discussing history or the senility of the Pope (so what? He'll be dead soon and a new unsenile pope will be on the throne--doesn't change that there IS a Pope and women are still excluded from power in the church, does it?) only tells me how YOU see the card...it doesn't change how I see it. On the contrary. It doesn't tell you how I see the card. It simply tells you that I found your comment offensive.

Thirteen	21 Feb 2005
psychic sue wrote: On the contrary. It doesn't tell you how I see the card. It simply tells you that I found your comment offensive. What comment? The senile refernce was said by Spoonbender, not me. And I make no apologies for pointing out that the Catholic Religion is male dominated, does not allow its spiritual leaders to be female and dipicts the divine as male. As I recall, it was the current Pope who reasserted that women would not be permitted to ever be priests. I believe his reasoning was that since the 12 deciples were male, priests must be male. Too bad the gnostics, who, I believe, revered Mary Magdeline as first deciple, not Peter, didn't win out back when the two forces were vying for control of Christianity (I could be wrong there--I'm no gnostic expert). Then we might indeed have a Papess in Rome as well as a Pope.

psychic sue	21 Feb 2005
My apologies Thirteen, it was indeed Spoonbender who made the comments re; the present pope. I agree with what you say about Catholocism, but my original point was that many people find a great deal of comfort from the Catholic Church, and I am still of the opinion that we should respect others views on their own religion.

Diana	21 Feb 2005
Thirteen: My conviction is that the Papess in the Tarot of Marseilles (I'm not speaking Visconti here), IS the Magdalene. (I've gone through this discussion a million times with friends - well maybe not a million, that's just a metaphor - and I come to the same conclusion each time.) It is the belief of many (and not just since that book called the Da Vinci code), and has been for hundreds of years, that Mary Magdalene was put in charge of the "church" (for the want of a better word) that Jesus (probably her husband and father of her child/children) left as a legacy. Not the Christianity that we have come to know and which has been deformed and twisted by the guys who took it over through inquisitions and such-like, but the one that he really came to teach. (I'm not a Christian myself by the way, and definitely not a Roman Catholic. :eek: ) It is also supposed that she was sitting at his right or left side (can't recall now) at the legendary Last Supper. If one is going to take the word "Papess", "Pope", "Hanged Man", "Devil", etc. literally, then we're not going to get very far. The Tarot speaks in riddles (well at least, the Tarot of Marseilles does). Just like the Sphinx on the Wheel of Fortune. And is full of word-play and allegory. (Well, at least the Tarot of Marseilles is full of word-play and allegory.) I don't think that the Papess and the Pope have much to do with each other in the Tarot of Marseilles. Otherwise they would have been put side by side, like the Emperor and the Empress. They are two separate entities. And the Pope does not refer to the Roman Catholic church. It's just symbolic. Just like the Hanged Man does not refer to a man Hanging Upside Down from a branch of a tree; and the Devil does not refer to Satan or anything evil. (spoonbender used an unfortunate word. But why are some people just concentrating on a word used in haste, instead of reading the rest of his post. It think it's a bit silly to discard the rest of his post because of this one word.)

Rusty Neon	21 Feb 2005
Major Tom wrote: Oddly enough, they're traditionally seen as enemies. :laugh: It goes back to the ancients this emnity, the conflict between belief and knowledge. How so? In the Roman Catholic Church including the period in which the TdM was developed, Marian devotion (devotion to the Virgin Mary), accepted by the Church, was (and is still) strong.

spoonbender	21 Feb 2005
psychic sue wrote: I agree with what you say about Catholocism, but my original point was that many people find a great deal of comfort from the Catholic Church, and I am still of the opinion that we should respect others views on their own religion. Saying that the present pope is an old senile man doesn't mean that I don't respect catholicism, you know. Just like when I think a president of a country is a d*ckhead, it doesn't mean that I don't like that particular country. At its core, I actually think christianity is quite a beautiful religion. So you see, there's a BIG difference. Diana wrote: (spoonbender used an unfortunate word. But why are some people just concentrating on a word used in haste, instead of reading the rest of his post. It think it's a bit silly to discard the rest of his post because of this one word.) My post wasn't written in haste - I still think the present pope is senile. But I also wonder why everyone is ignoring everything else I said in my post. (I think some are replying right next to the point, so I'm not going to bother taking part in meaningless discussions that are only going to get this thread closed.) Thank you for pointing that out, Diana. Spoon

Diana	21 Feb 2005
spoon: It is true that senility is one of the secondary symptoms of Parkinson's disease. But I think we can safely say that neither Le Pape V nor La Papesse II suffer from this very sad illness. That is one thing they have in common.

Fudugazi	21 Feb 2005
Major Tom wrote: Oddly enough, they're traditionally seen as enemies. :laugh: It goes back to the ancients this emnity, the conflict between belief and knowledge. The Papess and The Pope see the same thing from a different perspective. I don't think that either is about belief versus knowledge (which is which in your view? the simple fact I cannot answer makes it at least not very obvious). They both integrate belief and knowledge, but in defferent ways. Where did you get the enemy idea from? As for the Marian cult, which Rusty Neon refers to, it is probably different from La Papesse, in that Mary is not supposed to be knowledgeable, or a leader. She is all faith and all love, and the earthly replacement for that strumpet Eve, who was not a virgin, was far too nosy for her own good, and obviously an out-of-control woman.

Kiama	22 Feb 2005
Interesting stuff here. Diana: I particularly like the idea that La Papessa is Magdalena - She is somebody very close to my heart, and I have often seen Her in the High Priestess card. Now, I don't use the Marseilles decks, so I won't be commenting on this thread from that perspective. I also won't be commenting based on whether or not the Hierophant and HPS are next to each other in the Majors, but instead commenting based on my own experiences of these cards... I think they're both about knowledge and learning, but see them as getting to their knowledge through different methods. High Priestess: knowledge through personal experience, personal exploration, intuition, etc. Hierophant: knowledge through finding out about other people's experiences, knowledge through tradition, knowledge through facts. There is a tendency in the neo-Pagan community (which is really where I'm coming from here) to see the former as preferable to the latter, but really I see them both as working well together: after all, what's the point in having one without the other? You only get half of the entire picture. It's like learning Tarot: you start out listening to what others have to say, and reading about the traditional ways of understanding the cards, but continue to add to your knowledge with your own experiences and ideas, your own thoughts and discoveries... So, that's how I see these two cards as interacting. :D Blessings, Kiama

Major Tom	22 Feb 2005
My own view is The Papess and The Pope are natural allies. They both provide instruction on accessing the divine - the spiritual. Yet, the perception of conflict exists - we can see it played out in this thread - conflicts of knowledge and belief. Speaking strictly for myself (your mileage may vary): The Papess' primary tool is knowledge. She invites us to explore within ourselves to gain knowledge of ourselves and our primarily spiritual nature. The Pope's primary tool is belief. He invites us to believe in a higher spiritual power and our essential immersion in that power. I see them very much like two sides of the same coin.

jmd	23 Feb 2005
As mentioned in one of the threads in the Marseille sections, I personally strongly suspect that II the Papesse stems from iconography hinting at the Annunciation of Mary (mother of Jesus). Even one of its early titles on the Dodal Marseilles (Pances = belly/womb) hints at this. Like many others, I do not consider the Pope Joan anti-catholic legend to be at all influential in the early design of the deck, though it is possible that some later decks have taken the story into consideration in their depiction. Thus, and though I personally do not agree with Thirteen that the title in the Marseille is one of its weaknesses, I do tend to wholeheartedly agree that the Pope refers, at least historically, not to a priest or leader in either coptic or eastern church, but to the Roman Catholic one. One needs to do no more but observe the image, rather than isolated and later title, to bear this out: he wears a triple-headed 'crown', not an eastern orthodox nor coptic head-covering. If one also looks through the thread on the Pope in the Marseille section, you may notice that I also post a mediaeval depiction of what looks very much like our Pope card, but depicting, rather, God with, as acolytes, allegorical representatives of Judaism (with the tablets) and Christianity (with the Cup of the Covenant). In each case, what seems to be offered are the respective 'covenants' or rules to be observed in order to lead one back towards the spiritual realms. To myself, this is vitally important: the focus is not that there are rules, but rather that there is a particular covenant made by which one is guided towards the spiritual realms. Guidance and spiritual instruction seem to be very much part of this card's iconographic intent. By contrast, the Papess/Pances/Womb/'High Priestess', though certainly holding a book, seems to be directly approached by angelic hosts (ie, by divine messengers who speak directly to her). She is not only told of her immediate pregnancy (if one takes the Annunciation as related to the depiction), but also, importantly, bears the child. Not by rules and guidance, but by grace and direct revelation. To return to part of Major Tom's opening post, certainly the Pope can instruct us in the 'traditional holidays'. For each of these, the Papess brought them to being.

Rusty Neon	23 Feb 2005
jmd wrote: Thus, and though I personally do not agree with Thirteen that the title in the Marseille is one of its weaknesses, I do tend to wholeheartedly agree that the Pope refers, at least historically, not to a priest or leader in either coptic or eastern church, but to the Roman Catholic one. One needs to do no more but observe the image , rather than isolated and later title , to bear this out: he wears a triple-headed 'crown', not an eastern orthodox nor coptic head-covering. For the record, my remarks further above on this thread about the word meaning also a Russian parish priest or the Coptic pope were to address comments by others on this thread that the word can only refer to the Bishop of Rome and not to any other person. The Tarot de Marseille, being influenced by Latin Christianity rather than Greek Christianity, likely had the Bishop of Rome in mind in the reference to Pope in the Pope card.

Fulgour	23 Feb 2005
One of the handy benefits to be gained from our modern Tarots like the Colman :) Smith is that we can know our own immediate feelings about these two spiritual figures. Did people in medieval and later times have any difficulties sorting out who was who and what was what? I'd doubt it. 'La Papess' and 'Le Pape' would have been easily identified.

Rusty Neon	23 Feb 2005
Fulgour wrote: One of the handy benefits to be gained from our modern Tarots like the Colman :) Smith is that we can know our own immediate feelings about these two spiritual figures. Did people in medieval and later times have any difficulties sorting out who was who and what was what ? I'd doubt it. 'La Papess' and 'Le Pape' would have been easily identified. Although I live in the 21st century, I still find the Pope and Papesse cards of the TdM easier to relate to than the Golden Dawn/RWS Hierophant and Priestess cards. To each his own. À chacun, son goût.

Fulgour	24 Feb 2005
There is no "Pope" card in the TdeM ~ it's "Le Pape" and my Colman Smith Tarot has The High Priestess. But do eachly your ownly enjoy that "Hierophant" :)

jmd	24 Feb 2005
When Rusty Neon mentions that his earlier posts about the usage of the word 'Pope' was to correct and broaden the recognition of the usage of the title, I wholeheartedly agree - and further it was a comment that was not only highly informative, but also broadened, from my own perspective, our understanding of the way the title itself, as applied to the Roman Catholic pontif, can be more broadly based and viewed. Its etymological connection to 'father' further lends credence to my own remarks as to consideration of the card as iconographically possibly related to God-the-Father (within Christian trinitarian doctrine). Though Fulgour correctly points out that the Marseille has its title imprinted with the words 'Le Pape', this is, it may also be worth noting, 'simply' (if there ever is a 'simply') the French appelation for 'Pope'. One element which has always astounded me with the title of 'Papess' is its feminine ending of what is essentially a masculine term - a little like calling a feminine character 'Mother', and its masculine counterpart 'He-Mother' (rather than 'father'). Perhaps, rather than focussing too much on the titling, further reflections on the imagery (in perhaps even a variety of decks) may also accentuate the contrast between these two cards ('Pape' and 'Papess').

Diana	24 Feb 2005
Fulgour wrote: One of the handy benefits to be gained from our modern Tarots like the Colman :) Smith is that we can know our own immediate feelings about these two spiritual figures. I suppose so, if one is a Neo-Pagan or a Wiccan or a Golden Dawn adept or a Modern Druid. To me, a High Priestess and a High Priest are kind of foreign concepts. I haven't a clue what they represent, apart from the fact that they represent some Ultimate Authority and Hierarchy. As to a "Hierophant"... what a pompous word indeed. It always reminds me of a Helephant. (I like helephants though - I always feel sad how many get killed for their ivory in spite of the ban.)

The The Papess and The Pope thread was originally posted on 20 Feb 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.