fire and water in the king of cups

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

David	21 Mar 2005
hey all! on one tarot site i frequent (tryskelion.com), it says this about the king of cups: "The conflict between fire and water is evident in this individual. These two elements are likely to cause great difficulty unless there is adequate knowledge for integration and balance. If harmony and balance is not achieved and maintained, there is mismanagement of personal affairs. Failure and disaster seem to lurk behind every corner." struck me as really important-- how to balance and integrate fire and water, to hold the tension between those opposites... and perhaps find a way through to something reconciled with itself. any thoughts? David

graylensman	21 Mar 2005
Interesting... but mostly what I've read, that description sounds more appropriate for Temperance. My understanding is that the King of Cups can let his love for family, friends, etc. overflow - or he can wallow in misery, in his cups as the saying goes. Fire seems generally related to Wands, when you're dealing with Minor Arcana. :)

tarotbear	22 Mar 2005
That 'fire and water' stuff is a qabala reference. In qabala all the Kings are Fire, but they also have the element of their suit, the Cups being Water. Therefore, he is "the King of the Fire of Water." Unless you can get into qabala, it goes around and around in a lot of intellectual circles and can leave you feeling like you landed on an alien planet. Just my two cents. To me Water puts out Fire. :smoker:

firemaiden	22 Mar 2005
Hi David, I had a look at the website you referenced. It turns out the tarot cards written up on tryskellion.com are all from the Thoth deck of Alistair Crowley. In Crowley's system, the Kings (called Knights in his deck) are Fire, Princes are Air, Queens are Water, and Princesses are Earth. For this reason, the "King of Cups" written up here, which should have been called "the Knight of Cups", is "the fiery part of water". The blurb you quoted seems to have been paraphrased from the Book of Thoth. Here is the what Aleister Crowley himself had to say about his Knight of Cups: Quote: The Knight of Cups represents the fiery part of Water, the swift passionate attack of rain and springs; more intimately, Water's power of solution. He rules the Heavens from the 21st degree of Aquarius to the 20th degree of Pisces. He is clothed in black armour furnished with bright wings which, together with the leaping attitude of his white charger, indicates that he represents the most active aspect of Water. In his right hand he bears a cup from which issues a crab, the cardinal sign of Water, for aggressiveness. His totem is the peacock, for one of the stigmata of water in its most active form is brilliance. There is here also some reference to the phenomena of fluorescence. The characteristics of the person signified by this card are nevertheless mostly passive, in accordance with the Zodiacal attribution. He is graceful, dilettante, with the qualities of Venus, or a weak Jupiter. He is amiable in a passive way. He is quick to respond to attraction, and easily becomes enthusiastic under such stimulus; but he is not very enduring. He is exceedingly sensitive to external influence, but with no material depth in his character. When the card is ill dignified, he is sensual, idle and untruthful. Yet with all this he possesses an innocence and purity which are the essence of his nature. But he is, on the whole, so superficial that it is hard to reach this depth. "His name is writ in water." In the Yi King, the fiery part of Water is represented by the 54th Hexagram, Kwei Mei. The commentary is singularly obscure, and somewhat sinister. It deals with the difficulties of rightly mating such opposites as fire and water (compare the Queen of Wands; but in that case Water is the calming and modulating influence, while here it is Fire which creates trouble.) Swiftness and violence ill suit a character naturally placid; it is rare indeed to meet with a person who has succeeded in harmonizing these conflicting elements. He tends to mismanage all his affairs; and unless sheer good fortune attend him, his whole career will be an unbroken record of failure and disaster. Often his mental "civil war" ends in schizophrenia or melancholy madness. The abuse of stimulants and narcotics may precipitate the catastrophe.

jmd	22 Mar 2005
For another thread that may be of interest in this King, check[indent]Roy de Coupes[/indent] As pointed out, the comment about the King of Cups being Fire of Water arises from Golden Dawn correlations, in which the King, Queen, Knight and Page are correlated by them to the four letters of the tetragrammaton (YHVH - Yahweh), that in turn is correlated by them to the four elements. Thus, for them, the King corresponds to Yod that corresponds to Fire. As their preferred elemental attribution to the suits is for Cups to be allocated Water (this is not universal, and some decks clearly connect Cups with Air), the King of Cups is, following those views, Fire of Water. As also pointed out, others, who began with GD correlations, made some further alterations. In the case of Crowley, transposing the King and Knight, and calling the former Prince. In itself, the King of Cups is neither Fire nor Water. Certainly the Cup may be viewed as connecting both by a very simple reflection on the nature of blood that it may very well contain: Blood can be considered metaphorically as the fluid Fire that flows within our vessels - containing our very forces of Ego. Perhaps another question that may be relevant to this king is who holds this Grail? - and what perhaps ails this King?

David	22 Mar 2005
thanks firemaiden; reading the full-version helped me to figure something out. i think that in asking my question, i was thinking redemptively-- how can this poor, conflicted soul find union and end the tension within himself? After reading the crowley though, it occurs to me that maybe this king (or knight) can't-- that the tension is a part of who "he" is! Until now, i've tended to view the court royals as people... not usually real-life people, but full 3 dimensional characters capable of change and redemption. So when I'm feeling like the king of cups, esp reversed, I wonder how I can "cure" him of his malaise... how I can dry out a character that feels sodden and heavy. but now I'm thinking only i can change. that the king of cups stays the king of cups, because he's a state of being and not a person. and perhaps (it seems likely), he's perfectly happy with the way he is. if he changed into, let's say, Temperance, then we'd just have less variety in our deck, and in our lives. thanks again all! David

firemaiden	22 Mar 2005
David, thank you for these wonderfully interesting reflections. The King of Cups as a state of being, rather than a person in need of fixing -- Very interesting indeed! Welcome to the Forum. :)

David	22 Mar 2005
Perhaps another question that may be relevant to this king is who holds this Grail? - and what perhaps ails this King?[/quote] jmd, that *is* an interesting question. i've read some of the grail legends about our wounded fisher king. seemed to me that the combo of fire and water ended in paralysis, stasis... a fire drowning below the surface = a wound that would not heal. so far though, i never have understood completely the power of the question that heals him. "who does the grail serve?" The best i figure is that the power to heal this king lies outside of him-- outside of his woundedness and turmoil and inner strife. that the grail serves god, or the world... and in seeing that far-sightedly, he is set free from the torments of his limited perspective (ego).

psychic sue	22 Mar 2005
Water puts out fire. Therefore, for the two to exist, the fire has to be contained. Fire and water also produce steam - a lot of hot air !

Adjustment	22 Mar 2005
jmd wrote: For another thread that may be of interest in this King, check [indent] Roy de Coupes [/indent] Thanks JMD for the link, very interesting to read.

firemaiden	22 Mar 2005
David wrote: i've read some of the grail legends about our wounded fisher king. seemed to me that the combo of fire and water ended in paralysis, stasis... a fire drowning below the surface = a wound that would not heal. so far though, i never have understood completely the power of the question that heals him. "who does the grail serve?" The best i figure is that the power to heal this king lies outside of him-- outside of his woundedness and turmoil and inner strife. that the grail serves god, or the world... and in seeing that far-sightedly, he is set free from the torments of his limited perspective (ego). Wow! This is really great stuff!! Maybe the question that heals him, will also redeem the king of cups, if you want to go back to thinking redemptively.

The fire and water in the king of cups thread was originally posted on 21 Mar 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.