"philosophy" of the fives
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| wind |
20 Mar 2005 |
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1)What is the simbolism of the fives, opposing to seven? 5 means deception, defeat...so, 7 is more positive, it suggests move on, go on, 5 suggests let go?
2)What is the relation between 3, 5, 7 of swords?
3 means loss, 5 means defeat, so you have to let go of something for which you really want to struggle? and 7? it is always seen as a theft card, but I've seen several decks representing it as a "go on, dare, don't loose hope" card.
What do you think?
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| Fudugazi |
20 Mar 2005 |
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Where did you get that 5 meant "deception, defeat"? In numerology, 5 is the number of man, change, movement out of the stability of the four - hence the idea of crisis that was picked up in the RWS. Crisis can come out of defeat - it can also come out of victory (ask any lottery winner). And out of crisis comes change - and a new life that finds expression in the harmony of the 6.
One thing that strikes me in the RWS fives, is how that crisis is worked ot pictorially; these are pictures of crisis, out of which will come change and growth. So why the gut-reaction negativity?
Take the 5 of swords. Defeat?
But what if it is victory, which has led to the crisis we see?
Or the 5 of pentacles. Down and outers? Or friends helping each other out through a crisis time, which will lead them to a much greater understanding, to compassion, to the opening of the heart and ease we see in 6 of cups?
Or the 5 of cups: lost love, or change into a more solid, real relationship - with someone else or with oneself -the cups standing up. Don't you feel like taking the figure gently by the shoulders, turning him round and saying - look, here, two cups are there for you! They will help you move forward, where you need to go next!
And the 5 of wands - how do we react to such moments of high-energy and change? Most of us feel stressed out - but what if we looked at it as an opportunity to channel all this fizzing energy?
Five is the number of the Hierophant, that guide and teacher: this reminds me that in times of crisis places of worship are filled.
When I look at five, I think of that Chinese ideogramme meaning crisis, and made up of two other ideogrammes meaning change and opportunity (I was told this - I don't actually know if there is such an ideogramme, but I do like the philosophy behind it). Change is stressful and can be painful (not necessarily), but change is also life. If we are to elaborate a philosophy of fives, we msut start by ditching the scared old definitions of "deception, defeat" and start looking at crisis as a challenge that can help us grow - and win.
Don't get me started on the 7 of Swords - I think it refers to a brave act carried out stealthily in enemy camp ;) Joan of Arc did something like that when she took Orleans.
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| wind |
20 Mar 2005 |
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Thanks for the great insight! really worth reading!
So,sevens are the next level of change? Where we must fight again to gain? Like the chariot.
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| Fudugazi |
20 Mar 2005 |
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So,sevens are the next level of change? Where we must fight again to gain? Like the chariot.
Or seven can be the action you know you must take fully to use the change you went through in the fives, and consolidated (and took a rest from!) in the sixes.
Seven is the arrow taking you where you need to go.
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| tarotbear |
20 Mar 2005 |
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On the Tree of Life, Sphere #5, Geburah, is about destruction of order, and chaos. The changes brought about by Fives can be devastating and unexpected.
IMHO - the Fives in Tarot are negative when upright, but 'better' when reversed.
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| judylea1 |
20 Mar 2005 |
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It is interesting to note that the 7 of swords is broken into 2 parts: 2 and 5, indicating an embracing of the quality of 5 or isolation. Also, the look on the person making off with swords doesn't look so noble to me.
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| Fudugazi |
21 Mar 2005 |
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IMHO - the Fives in Tarot are negative when upright, but 'better' when reversed.
ah, I beg to differ on that one - but then I don't read reversed. Which doesn't mean change cannot be catastrophic. It can. Yet the same event will have different consequences (psychological and actual) on different people, and it is people we are talking to. Some people take years getting over a divorce, some get over it quickly. Seeing the five of pentacles as financial ruin or feeling out of things, - and forgetting the five of pentacles as "help from friends in times of need" (or help to friends!) we are missing out a huge pane of human experience which is contained in the experience of change - and the opportunity to show someone (in a reading) how they can get through a period of change.
Change can also be liberating -as can chaos. I think we are way too mouse-like in our approach to fives.
I prefer to stick to numerology, which Waite conveniently forgot or twisted in his pursuit of that elusive tree of life and astrological correspondences, even as he numbered his cards. And even if we are to take tree of life correspondence - again, I find your interpretation of Geburah much too narrow. Within chaos is contained renewal and creation. Chaos - desctruction - is a passage, not a finality. It is also a necessary step.
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| Fudugazi |
21 Mar 2005 |
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It is interesting to note that the 7 of swords is broken into 2 parts: 2 and 5, indicating an embracing of the quality of 5 or isolation. Also, the look on the person making off with swords doesn't look so noble to me.
He could be ignoble, of course. He could be betraying his own side. Or he could be sneaking into enemy camp and removing their weapons - a very brave action, which would almost certainly get him killed, if not tortured, if he was caught. No-one looks noble when they work stealthily - does that mean it's not noble?
Where do you get the 5/isolation from? I just can't see this from the five cards. Separation, maybe, at least in the 5 of swords.
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| Fulgour |
21 Mar 2005 |
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On the Tree of Life, Sphere #5, Geburah, is about destruction of order, and chaos. The changes brought about by Fives can be devastating and unexpected. If referencing 5 to Gevurah (Severity) you should "bear" in mind
that 5 comes in between 4 Chesed (Mercy) and 6 Tiferet (Beauty).
On the Pillar of Severity, 5 Gevurah (Severity) comes in between
3 Binah (Understanding) and 8 Hod (Splendour). Then there are
the other aspects to 5 Gevurah (Severity): Judgement and Power.
:) I'm not "into" Kaballah, but I have delved into its mystical depths.
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| psychic sue |
21 Mar 2005 |
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I agree with postings above, but in addition, for me anyway, 5's are an opportunity to learn. Take something positive from the situation. Learn from it. Then move on.
Sue
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| Fudugazi |
21 Mar 2005 |
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5's are an opportunity to learn. Take something positive from the situation. Learn from it. Then move on. Another instance of sue-ism :) - in a few pithy words you have said what I have struggled to say in many more! Yes, and thus the link with 5-the Hierophant, the teacher and bridge, is also preserved.
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| Adjustment |
21 Mar 2005 |
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If we don't learn and move on with the 5 then we could get stuck in the past, i see the fives as if we are at a tuning point where you have to decide wheter focus on the past or to move on, it is your choice.
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| willowberry |
21 Mar 2005 |
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MM all,
am loving the whole discussion but one burning question needs to go to Helvetica on this one...
Could you recommend me a numerology text? Have looked on amazon but don't know which one to go for....
Willowberry
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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| ros |
21 Mar 2005 |
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7's could also mean that you are working on the direction taken with the 5
5 in any suit could also mean that your
-emotions (cups)
-ideas (swords)
-energy or work (wands)
-grounding (pentacles)
have just went through a revolving door. Scattered energy & freedom is shown with a 5. 5's see things both ways so they are changeable.
>on the bottom opening of the 5 & < on the top opening of the 5
see how the energy enters from both directions. 5 sees from both directions at one time. They are moveable back and forth.
5 changing direction where 7 energy has settled with the change & now works with where they are at.
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| Fudugazi |
21 Mar 2005 |
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Hi Willowberry - I have two texts that I really use, but they are in French, so they might be no good to you. Just in case - one is by Camille Creusot, La Face cachée des Nombres, a classic text of the seventies, which uses Pythagorean numerology, the Kabbalah and the Tarot (it's not perfect, and some of his correpondences are a bit too occulty-mystical for me, but it's still a good text). I also have a good three-short book series on the golden number (or golden proportion) - not exactly what you are after but fascinating (also in French, but there's quite a bit on the Golden Number in English).
Jodorowsky, in his book on the Tarot, talks about numbers as they relate to the Tarot, but he's not yet translated into English. Tomberg's meditation onthe Tarot also looks at numbers as they relate to the Tarot.
There are a number of books on symbols that discuss numbers (as well as other things) - the best I've found so far is the Dictionary of Symbols by Chevalier and Gheebrant. Others have written as well on symbols, but this one really is quite detailed about numbers. It's good al-round, actually!
On the net, this is what I was guided to by someone on this forum:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/unit1/INTRO.html - there are many interesting articles, including several on numbers - look at the menu on the left.
Someone else on this forum guided me to this:
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/PT/PT.html#minor
which is about the Pythagorean Tarot, and includes articles on all pythagorean numbers - vital for the Tarot. Just navigate in the minor arcana for those. Five, the pentad, is named "crisis" - not so different from the Geburah/dîn "severity" "judgement" or "breakdown of structure" (the breakdown comes from the fact that G-d's Justice has been administered).
Finally, for a tarot book that takes numbers seriously but is not heavy-going, I'd go for John Mangiapane (our own Tarotbear) - It's All in the Cards. I saw it the other day in Borders in Oxford, so it's readily available in the UK. Despite our seeming disagreement in this discussion, I read from his description of the fives: "five indicates change, challenge and fluctuation" - and - in line with Geburah - "the breaking-down of the forces of nature, which are as necessary as the forces that build up" - Tarotbear also added some interesting comments on the five of Swords (Nb - John, I hope it's OK me quoting you here - I really think your arrangement of minors into numbers very useful!)
For more personality-focussed numerology, I can't advise you, I don't know.
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| tmgrl2 |
21 Mar 2005 |
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The first thought that comes to mind when I think of "five" is what Umbrae says in his take on the meaning of the numbers one to ten...
Order
and
Disorder
A two and a three...
Also, humanity and it's foibles ...I see the human spread out inside of a pentacle....and think of the four limbs as the four and then of the introduction of the head/mind/spirit into the mix...
So fives for me, can be times of order and disorder...with the power of the spirit and/or the mind to assist us on the eartly plane, now that we have moved beyond the elements of fours.
terri
Of course, it then depends upon the suit and the spread and the moment of the reading event itself....Sometimes I see quite lovely things...even in the RWS Five of Pents...
....such as the lights from the stained glass window as being ...help that is there but maybe not seen, or
Help is just around the corner.
Or...we can be stuck in our own pain and not realize that there is "light" ahead or help there.
terri
Just my rambling thoughts...from memory...
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| The Hierophant |
21 Mar 2005 |
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I like this quote from Lon Milo DuQuette's book on the Troth in describing the progression from the Two of Cups to the Five of Cups(I'm only up to studying the Fives.)
"Now we can see where the earlier cards in this suit were taking us. Love leads to Abundance, which (left uncontrolled), leads to Luxury, (which left uncontrolled), leads to decadence, boredom, frustration and---Disappointment."
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| tmgrl2 |
21 Mar 2005 |
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Fulgour..thank you for those links...I printed some of it out....very good references to have!
terri
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The "philosophy" of the fives thread was originally posted on 20 Mar 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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