Queen of Cups, RWS style
Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.
| graylensman |
07 Mar 2005 |
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What *is* that object the queen is holding? Looks like no cup I've ever seen...
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| closrapexa |
08 Mar 2005 |
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It seems to be some sort of urn, but as to what it actually means is beyond me. But why does she look so upset looking at it? She looks downright moody.
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| Fudugazi |
08 Mar 2005 |
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To me she looks concentrated. Funny you should say moody. My mother thinks I look moody when I am thinking and concentrating on something - when in fact I am simply lost in thought or action. I think the Queen is just thinking very deeply.
As to the object - it looks like a very ornate gilt roccoco chalice, circa 1740, I would say.
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| xerat |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I never really thought she looked moody, more dreamy, lost in thought. Like it reminds her of someone?
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| Kiama |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I always assumed the cup was some sort of chalice that might be used in Catholic mass or something similar, but it's not something I've looked into very much.
Though Helvetica said something that made me laugh, because I have the same problem - whenever I am deep in thought, everyone thinks I'm either really angry or sullen, because my brows furrow, mouth doesn't smile, and I stare off into space... But I'm not sullen, just thoughtful!
Maybe this says that with the Queen of Cups, you think you know what's going on at the surface (and many assume she's quite shallow), but actually there's more going on in there... Y'know: still waters run deep.
Blessings,
Kiama
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| Fudugazi |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I think she is the deepest of all the queens - of all the court cards in the Waite-Colman-Smith deck, in fact.
The chalice: Pixie Colman is known to have visited the British Museum in search of models to draw her tarot. It's quite probable she also visited the Victoria and Albert and looked at various artefacts exposed there - including antique chalices. This one looks very rococco to me.
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| psychic sue |
08 Mar 2005 |
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The cup symbolises to me all that she has created and achieved. She stares at it so intently, because she is proud of her creation.
She uses her ideas and creativity to the fullest and manages to make them become real. She strikes the fine balance between making her world spiritual and material, not too much of one or the other in her life. This is also symbolised by one foot in the water, one on the ground.
Sue
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| graylensman |
08 Mar 2005 |
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It seems to be some sort of urn, but as to what it actually means is beyond me. But why does she look so upset looking at it? She looks downright moody.
Funny you should post that... I am working on a color-it-yourself RWS deck, and when I colored this card, it did come out moody - I saw her sitting on a mist-shrouded beach, and colored appropriately. :)
As far as the chalice goes, this one is so utterly different from the more iconic image of the Cup in the rest of the suit, that I thought it must have more meaning or symbolic importance.
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| Fulgour |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I'm pretty sure this Cup was a wedding gift from The Queen's
brother and sister-in-law, and she's trying to think of the right
place to put it. I'd suggest back in the box and then the closet.
http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups13.jpg
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| psychic sue |
08 Mar 2005 |
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ha ha ha Fulgour you make me laugh! :)
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| graylensman |
08 Mar 2005 |
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Fulgour - LOL!! Maybe the Queen of Cups comes to represent a regifter...
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| closrapexa |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I'm pretty sure this Cup was a wedding gift from The Queen's
brother and sister-in-law, and she's trying to think of the right
place to put it. I'd suggest back in the box and then the closet.
http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups13.jpg
Or perhaps throw it into the ocean, which might explain why she is sitting so precariously close to the edge...
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| firemaiden |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I'd suggest that what she is holding is the cup from the Ace of Cups of the Marseille tarot. (And see threads on the Marseille tarot to learn what that would be -- a tabernacle? the city of Jerusalem?)
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| Fudugazi |
08 Mar 2005 |
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I'd suggest that what she is holding is the cup from the Ace of Cups of the Marseille tarot. (And see threads on the Marseille tarot to learn what that would be -- a tabernacle? the city of Jerusalem?)
Or a mosque - paying tribute to the Moorish-Persian origin of the Minor Arcana.
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| Thirteen |
08 Mar 2005 |
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Might well be a pun. The Queen of cups is holding...the queen of cups. That's the cup that rules over all the other cups, which is why it appears to be wearing a crown. I'm in agreement, also, that it's probably a cup that has to do with the mass (it does have a little cross on top and what look to be angels to either side). The cups cards have always related back to the holy grail, spirituality, etc.
As for the concentrating queen, I think she's just trying to figure out how to open the darn thing :D
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| Rusty Neon |
08 Mar 2005 |
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What *is* that object the queen is holding? Looks like no cup I've ever seen...
The object which the RWS queen of cups is holding has its imagery basis in the queen of cups card of the Tarot de Marseille (TdM) deck, but there is the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn deck's queen of cups in the middle of the story (see the Golden Dawn deck renditions by Wang and by Cicero).
As Robert Wang notes in _The Qabalistic Tarot_, p. 75, regarding the queen of cups' cup:
In the Golden Dawn version, her right hand holds a Cup from which a crayfish emerges, while her left hand rests a Lotus upon the head of an Ibis [bird] . Crowley's card is an abstraction of the same symbols. ... The Crayfish relates to the Moon.
In the Golden Dawn version, basically two sets of claws of the crayfish emanate from the cup. The RWS queen of cups' cup is an abstraction of the Golden Dawn queen of cups' cup; you can see the abstract versions of the two sets of claws in that cup.
In the TdM version, the queen of cups is looking quite intently at the cup, as is the queen of cups in the Golden Dawn version. In the RWS version, the intensity of the queen's regard on the cup is even more noticeable.
In terms of elements and sub-elements in the Golden Dawn system of correspondences, the queen (water) of cups (water) is Water of Water.
As Waite writes in _PKT_, p.201, regarding the queen of cups:
Beautiful, fair, dreamy -- as one who sees visions in a cup.
And, as Crowley writes, regarding the queen of cups in _Book of Thoth_:
She lives in the world of Romance, in the perpetual dream of rapture.
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| firemaiden |
08 Mar 2005 |
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Very interesting, Rusty, I didn't know that. I was thinking only of the Marseille Ace of Cups, that bizarre thing that looks like a tabernacle.
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| Fulgour |
08 Mar 2005 |
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Maybe the Queen of Cups comes to represent a regifter... Maybe she is contemplating her role as nurturer:
Will it be a Boy or a Girl? (Far too soon to say...)
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| rosesred |
08 Mar 2005 |
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To me it has always looked like the grail, gilded to protect it from time itself by the fisherking (= arthurian legend) Earthly beings can't gaze in it without dying or going mad, or some other form of transformation. It seemed an appropiate cup for the queen of the realm.
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| graylensman |
09 Mar 2005 |
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Fascinating information, all! For me, though, it raises a few more questions - if the Queen's Cup is meant to be more representational than symbolic ( a judgement call, I know, but bear with me), why is her "object" the only one of the Court cards rendered this way? Why not have the Queen of Swords bear Excalibur - certainly there are archtypal renditions of this famous sword - or the King of Pentacles display a Coin of the Roman Empire?
Rosesred, your comment (combined with my thoughts) put me in mind of the Virgin Mary - she is the most exalted of Saints, and so perhaps the Queen of Cups represents a similar figure and thus gets a slightly different treatment than the other courtiers.
***
Fulgour, I would have thought the Boy might look like this: http://www.the-robotman.com. ( apparently I can't do HTML in my posts >:( )
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| Cascade |
09 Mar 2005 |
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I can identify with the Queen of Cups. As a Pisces she is me. When she takes that scrying bowl and fills it from that vast ocean and looks deeply within-she know who's been naughty or nice.
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The Queen of Cups, RWS style thread was originally posted on 07 Mar 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.
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