Strange objects in Estensi Tarot - What are these?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Mar 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Lutenist	11 Mar 2005
(1) In the Ace of Chalices, there is a carousel horsie standing on a something. A chimney? What is the big object? What is the strange stick in the middle? (2) In the Four of Swords there is something in the left hand of the man. What is this? A napkin? A lasso? I don't think so... :confused: (3) In the Eight of Wands there is a man in a tree. There are strange boxes hanging from the branches. Beehives? (4) In the Two of Pentacles, there is a man stabbing his boyfriend. :( He is holding a phantom knife in his right hand, but what is the object in his left hand? Any ideas? (5) In the Seven of Chalices, there are two women. The nearer one is holding a strange stick and sitting on a strange white object. I think this picture depicts a decan from the Schifanoia Palace fresco. What are these objects? The stick might be a croquet club :P, but the white enamel thingy looks really strange. (6) In the Ace of Pentacles, a hand is holding a strange golden item. What could it be? It looks a bit familiar but I still cannot recognise it. Help appreciated, Lutenist

rosyelf	11 Mar 2005
Lutenist, I do think the strange boxes on the tree are beehives. Just my penny's worth. love rosyelf P.S. I love your name, by the way. Do you actually play the lute ?

Rosanne	11 Mar 2005
Hi Lutenist, I have the Estensi deck and I love it, but the more I use it I am realising it is quite a cruel deck, if that makes sense. 1.Ace of Chalices- I think it is a monument somewhere that I don't know. 2.4 Swords- I think it is a grass snake 3. 8 Wands -They are bird boxes I think and he is looking for eggs in Winter 4. He has stabbed his friend for his purse of coin. 5. 7 Chalices- I don't know what the stick is but I think the white article is a cradle board. 6. Ace of Pentacles- I think that is a Guild sign for a Gold merchant. These are my guesses, someone else may have the definitive answer. Do your like your Estensi cards?~ Rosanne p.s. 2 of Wands- isn't that the calmest castration scene you have ever seen?

Cerulean	11 Mar 2005
in general, the details shown were not picked to align with the scenic meanings. When I see what G. Berti wrote, and as I study the deck, the scene as a whole is an expression that is similar to writing in the booklet. Some people have written this deck seems intuitive, and so they are happy with their own tales they see in the allegories. For others, I've posted an old book title that analyzes the frescos, but my guess no one has really wanted to buy or cannot find it...but the image link to the frescos works just as well. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/t/tura/schifano/ I find deck and pictures more medieval and very early Renaissance--rich in an old way, not a new one. I will hopefully later have time to look at the cards, if others do not. I have linked to the Schifanioa Palace images below . You can check through your deck and actually enlarge the fresco scenes and also research other threads here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=23075 It would help me very much if you could tell me which fresco you see the same image...as it takes me awhile to do just that just with one image! I am delighted at interest in this deck. Am I mistaken or have other people researched the images more? Best wishes! Cerulean

Lutenist	11 Mar 2005
rosyelf wrote: P.S. I love your name, by the way. Do you actually play the lute ? No, but I have the next best thing: a guitalele (an itty bitty tiny wee guitar). Here's a picture of someone playing guitalele, ninth picture from the top (yamaha glx-1). http://www9.big.or.jp/~ken-73/bakacolle/guitar/guitar.html The big guitars sound muddy (perhaps not the more expensive ones). This one is however perfect for renaissance music. And only the price of a few tarot decks. Perhaps some day I'll order a low-grade lute from Amazon (now they sell musical instruments too). Almost all lutes are handmade, though, and cost a fortune. Rosanne wrote: Hi Lutenist, I have the Estensi deck and I love it, but the more I use it I am realising it is quite a cruel deck, if that makes sense. These are my guesses, someone else may have the definitive answer. Do your like your Estensi cards?~ Rosanne p.s. 2 of Wands- isn't that the calmest castration scene you have ever seen? Beforehand, I was really enthusiastic about purchasing the deck. But when my order arrived from Amazon, I was a bit disappointed about the images, which seemed somewhat bland and uninteresting. When I put them into a spread however, they looked just beautiful. As this is my first deck, I had initial problems understanding the cards. The LWB explanations also seemed confusing, until I realised that the bold keywords expressed the main theme of the card and the other divinatory meanings were a bit like clarifications to them. From one week's experience the deck seems useable: I can use the cards as metaphors of my life situations (if that's how they are supposed to be used). I already noticed that this is a much harsher deck than the RWS, but now that you specifically mentioned it, a few cards come to my mind that I have specifically noticed. The eight of swords, where a man is about to decapitate a kneeling woman. No explanation needed. The knight of swords. Looking at his expression, it seems as if he was more interested about getting into a good bloody fight than "protecting the law", as the LWB puts it. The three of swords... A proud-looking man with a bow and arrows. Every time I hear gunshots, I just can't feel comfortable. That's what this card reminds me of, hunting. The queen of swords, the life has been real harsh to the queen and her son. The four of coins, a man and his beloved ham. Too precious to eat, but gold sure tastes good. The seven of swords and the five of coins were originally from the same picture. Try combining the two. Mentally remove the swords. That was a symbolic scene in the frescos, though, depicting ten days of some month I cannot recall right now. The two of coins, with the man stabbing another. The seven of wands... With a man and a loyal dog, now old, deaf and no longer useful hunting instrument. The man is hiding something behind his back. : ( The six of pentacles with the horror legs gives me mixed feelings. Someone said it's supposed to depict Mercury. The seven of pentacles. A merchant with a cold look in his eyes, throwing gold coins at the direction of an uninterested woman. Sure, with money you can buy just about everything. Plus less notoriously: Two of chalices: you thought you'd get love and affection, but he's only thinking about one thing in specific. Four of chalices: I am fed up with my life. Nothing works right now. Perhaps that's because I'm not harsh enough to myself? A peaceful dove turns out to be a ruthless predator. Two of swords. "Let's negotiate this outside." Four of swords. "What a wonderful plaything does a snake make!" :| :eek: :| :eek: :| :eek: :| :eek:*hyperventilating* What an awful deck! But really, the nine of swords is not a cruel card although it is a very painful one. This is the feeling of anguish. That's when you feel there are no exit from a situation. Everyone around seems hostile to you. It's not easy to think clearly. I don't have a migraine so I don't really know the feeling, but there must be something similar in this head of flames. Or perhaps these flames represent the beating pain that is locked inside. You cannot cry. The flames are cold and dark, not like ordinary flames. However, if you turn this card upside down, you can drain the poor woman empty of all her pain. She has nothing in the place of her head, just a hole. So all the pain streams down to the ground and she will feel very serene afterwards. Worth trying! ;) I have also thought about the eight of swords with the man about to decapitate a kneeling woman. It might mean the following, among the other meanings. The theme of the card, according to the Little White Book, is punishment. But what does punishment mean? Can an action naturally carry out its own punisment? This woman has been speaking many harsh words. Each time she manages to hurt someone with her swordlike tongue, a sword is placed in the vessel behind her, the vessel symbolising herself. It is behind her, because it represents the actions in his past. She feels stinging and discomfort, the origin of which she cannot tell. She might even blame others for it. Poor woman, it would have been better to store gold coins instead. Here, the man might represent the feeling of discomfort, as in when you cannot see what is coming, but feel something is not right. Notice that by reversing the card you can help the lady: all the swords fall out of the vessel. The head of this woman can represent overconseptualisation. In the picture she is searching for her lost contact lenses. This is of course symbolic: she no longer can see the world around her. Instead she is caught into the same patterns of thinking again and again. Her head is full of thoughts. Actually so full that she needs a big hat to contain the thoughts that can't fit into her head. She's thinking so much she has grown a stranger to her remaining five senses, and emotions too. I think there are some academic people who are exactly like her. -- But here is the solution, a friendly swordsman getting ready to cut the head off. This is symbolic of her being delivered from the concepts and ideas that hold her prisoner. As soon as the sword falls, she will suddenly feel very serene. Now she smells the scent of moist grass, and feels it under her hands. The air is crisp and clear. Somewhere, a dog is barking. Then to the case of the Two of Wands. There was a case of a male to female transsexual who initially had a strong transvestic fetishism. She told in her article that she had kept the fetishism secret from her doctor, because she was afraid that she would disqualify for the hormonal and surgical treatments. After the big snap of scissors, however, she reported that her life was much easier due to the grealty diminished sexual urges. There was another case where a man had castrated himself, and although this took him to a mental hospital for a while, he reported similar results. He had no regret, even though he did not recommend the act to anyone on the face of the earth. I recall faintly that the act was the outcome of years of premeditation. In a TV document about destitute Indian hijras (people who are half men, half women) an interviewee reported a profound feeling of serenity a day after the painful operation with no anaesthesia whatsoever. When I'm looking at the picture, that's what I see. His expression says: "That was it?". At the hill, two trees rise. One has green leaves, the other is no longer green. Behind the hill, the sea is still and clear. A sense of inescapable change. There is no return. The life behind seems cloudy right now. Looking ahead, there is nothing. Everything is open. This is like leaving one's home country, knowing one can never return. Lutenist

Lutenist	11 Mar 2005
Cerulean wrote: in general, the details shown were not picked to align with the scenic meanings. When I see what G. Berti wrote, and as I study the deck, the scene as a whole is an expression that is similar to writing in the booklet. Agreed. Cerulean wrote: It would help me very much if you could tell me which fresco you see the same image...as it takes me awhile to do just that just with one image! Ace of Cups = May, above the army of babies. Its probably a fountain. 4 Swords = 3rd decan of March. However in the original he's holding a golden bracelet. The item in the card differs, and has been suggested to be a grass snake. 8 Wands, cannot find it in the fresco images, the boxes in the trees, bird boxes or beehives suggested. 7 Cups = 2nd decan of June, the white item is suggested to be a cradle board (looks different in the card. In the original, it's some kind of seat. What is the stick she's holding? Ace of Pentacles = 2nd decan of September, What is the item below him? Ceruelan wrote: I am delighted at interest in this deck. Am I mistaken or have other people researched the images more? Have you already seen this? http://www.tarot.org.il/Decans/ Lutenist

Cerulean	12 Mar 2005
1. Below is the thread with a list of the Schifanioa Frescos and the Estensi Tarot images. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=465281&posted=1#post465281 2. The decanate study description posted by Lutenist was done by someone independently, but I don't know if they help people looking at the Estensi Tarot cards. Please let me know if somone sees a helpful close correspendence between that link and the tarot cards and the frescos themselves... I do know for the frescos, Warburg believes that the pictorial conception of Schifanoia must have been Pellegrino Prisciani, the teacher of the astronomy at Ferarra. Since the use of images of the frescos for this tarot seem to be a tribute and were chosen with consultation with 'cartomancy specialists' rather than the original fresco's decanate placement in the Hall of Months--it made the descriptions seem interesting, but can you see an actual correspondence with that Lutinist's link, the cards numbering and the actual fresco images? 3. The frescos originally were in tribute to Borso, with the intention of establishing a comparison between the living Ruler and the gods presiding over the months of the year. Duke Borso was well-loved, a hunter, sportsman, pictured in rural pursuits are at the celebrated races (palio), delighting in French and Tuscan literature of romance and noted for celibacy in regards to women More will be added to the Schifanioia Months image analysis thread--hope others looking at the image thread and the frescos in context might find to enjoyment--but maybe the frescos will not really help a modern person trying to get intuitive details--I may be too much involved in thinking about the context, artists and times. I did this on and off last year and may add details if I have time...I think it's a good starting point if one is involved in the historical aspects. Best wishes, Cerulean

Rosanne	12 Mar 2005
Hi Lutenist, you really have a great grasp of these cards and only a week!. I have used them for several months now and although as I said they are cruel; in combination they are less so. They seem very plain speaking to me. You have made them very lyrical to me and your story lines(especially 2 wands) are well thought out. The undercurrent of humour is exactly what this deck needs by its owner. I use these cards as visulisation tools as well. In my practice of that I used 8 Swords one time, because it did seem an exaggerated punishment(LWB) and a very posed card. The thought came to me when the characters moved- the victim did not seem to believe anything bad was going to happen; she was doing what the rich boy suggested. Like the analogy of swords as past bad words. A pretend punishment or she was a patsy. Ah well I will keep using these cards in my way. I have not used them in reading for others. I am moving away from that at this point, I have read for others with RWS and like inspired decks, for years, and I am hungry for the History and self growth of the Tarot System. I am sure you will flow with these cards. Happy playing with your Guitalele- Ukelele playing is very popular in schools here in NZ. Thanks for your interesting post ~Rosanne

The Strange objects in Estensi Tarot - What are these? thread was originally posted on 11 Mar 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.