Elements and Court Cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 11 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

cybercat	11 Apr 2005
Hello all, I have been reading some post here on this site and a nother site. I got a question for I have a confilct with a book I am using. The book is The Tarot Workbook by Emily Peach Published by Sterling copyright 1990 ISBN 0850303907. This book I just started working thruw it. It was not a book I bought but left behind by an exboyfriend years ago. I have never really looked at it till the other night when I restarted my studies in tarot. This book has a different approch to learning the tarot than the book I use. The book I mainly use is Easy Tarot Guide my Marcia Masino ACS Publishing copyright 1987 ISBN0917086597. Ok in the tarot workbook Emily gives the court card the following Elements: Pages are attributed to the Element of Earth. Knights are attributed to the Element of Fire. Queens are attributed to the Element of Water. Kings are attributed to the Element of Air. Now in some posts discusing Elements I have seen this different. Kings are attributed to Fire I believe. Right now I can not find the posts. Emily Peach in her workbook says using these attributes it is possible to give "Names" to the Court Cards. Example Page of Wands would be Earth of Fire. Knight of Cups would be Fire of Water and Queen of cupes Water of water and so on. I would like a claification on the elemental attributed of court cards. Is Emily Peache's correct? Have these changed somehow? Can someone give be a correct referance guide on this. This was the first I had seen this in a book. I am looking for a newer book on the Tarot. One that gives more than just beginner card definitions. Any suggestions? Thanks Cat

Fulgour	11 Apr 2005
cybercat wrote: I am looking for a newer book on the Tarot. One that gives more than just beginner card definitions. Any suggestions? The Court Arcana tends to defy any (and all) simple formulas, and because there are 16 of them (20.5% of the entire deck), they will come up often, and will always be directly meaningful. 12 can be easily associated with the Zodiac signs, which gives you all the attributions for each of sign, house, and ruling planet. But the 4 Pages are special, and the best way to view them for me is to match them with the 4 phases of the Moon according to the matching Queen's sign. So the Page of Wands would be: waxing crescent moon at the Spring equinox (Queen of Wands). ETC :) Fulgour

similia	11 Apr 2005
I will relate my understanding in the hopes that those who are well researched will educate me on where I am mistaken :D You don't say what deck you are using, so I'm gonna guess its based on Golden Dawn in some way. Original GD-------RWS------------Thoth King++++++++++Knight+++++++++Knight (all on horses) FIRE Queen++++++++Queen+++++++++Queen (all seated) WATER Prince+++++++++King++++++++++Prince (GD and Thoth on chariots, RWS seated) AIR Princess+++++++Page++++++++++Princess (all standing) EARTH I believe that in the GD decks, the Kings were mounted on horses. In the RWS deck the Knights were described by Waite as the older figures than the King (although this is discounted by most) and Crowley changed the GD name from King to Knight as it was a bit sexier. You will notice that the order given by Waite is not the one usually discussed. (Maybe its clearer to say the guy on the horse is fire, the guy sitting down is air, and ignore the name...???) So the court cards ascend from Earth, to Air, to Water to Fire, however different decks and different people using decks change the order name of the characters. I hope this make some sense. I suspect it does not. :( Also a good book on meanings: I quite like Mary Greers book on Tarot Reversals. Although it is about reversals, it also gives very nice descriptions of the cards upright from a RWS persective. :)

Thirteen	11 Apr 2005
cybercat wrote: I would like a claification on the elemental attributed of court cards. Is Emily Peache's correct? Have these changed somehow? Can someone give be a correct referance guide on this. This was the first I had seen this in a book. When it comes the the Air/Fire you will always find conflicts. For example, there are dozens of discussions here on whether Wands or Swords are Fire/Air. Elemental designations are not carved in stone and there is never any absolute right or wrong with tarot. HOWEVER, two of the big influences on tarot, Crowley and Waite (creators of the Thoth and the Rider-Waite Decks respectively) have, as said: Kings/Knights = Fire Queens = Water Knights/Princes = Air Pages/Princesses = Earth (Crowley has Knights instead of Kings and Princes instead of Knights because he believed that the highest male power should be active on horseback rather than seated on a throne). So I would say that this is perhaps not the best book. In addition, as you've rightly assertained, the assignment of elements to the court cards is not really for beginners. Court cards are difficult to grasp and really should be delved into after you've gotten a good handle on the rest of the deck. As for a good beginner book, I think most of us would recommend Joan Bunning. May I suggest also that you take a look at some of these threads--if you go on down the list, you'll find toward the end, a number of threads for beginners on learning Tarot, including book recommendations. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=15119

cybercat	11 Apr 2005
I thank you all, I did find my answer on a posted web site from a simular dicussion. Emily Peach's elements come from Golden Dawn. I can understand them that way. Personally I would have put pages as fire but only for the child assoctiation. After all kids are not still that often. Thats a topic for another discussion. Cat

cybercat	11 Apr 2005
Sorry I had not got to answer all of Thriteen's comments. It seems I was not clear on my post. I have been studying Tarot for over 20 years. I am looking for some updated books that cover more than the basics. The basics I have I am looking for more behind the symbols, numbers, colors, relation to other cards and even more spreads. I have done readings for others threw the years but would like to study more indepth on the messages in the tarot. Thanks Cat

jmd	11 Apr 2005
It may also be worth remembering that the reason beyond the Golden Dawn's attribution of elements to the four courts are a consequence of the way they also allocate the letters of the name of God in Hebrew (the tetragrammaton: IHVH) to, in order, the King, Queen, Knight and Page, and that they also allocate to each letter an element: I to Fire, H (1st) to Water, V to Air, and H (last) to Earth. This letter-elemental correlation is itself certainly not traditional, nor accepted by many. As mentioned by Thirteen, there are not only differing views as to elemental attributions and suit, but also, in this specific case, to whether there even ought to be such attribution to the Courts in addition to their suit allocated attribution. This double elemental allocation with the Courts (court and suit) is also, of course, where one gets descriptions of, for example, the Queen of Coins as Water of Earth. Though one can with a little practice make much sense from such considerations, I personally would advocate more a careful study and reflection of what Queens signify, and what the suit as implement (rather than as possible elemental correlation) implies.

cybercat	12 Apr 2005
You know what I find interesting is that Golden Dawn also had yellow to represent air. Thing is most follow crowley who trained with the Golden Dawn then went his own way. He is also know for giving misdirected information to pulic sources and his students to make them figure it out on thier own. Something to think about. Cat.

Sechat	17 Apr 2005
Since I use the Cosmic deck as my primary, my perspective is necessarily altered by a deck that combines Thoth and RWS characteristics.(Which is fine with me because I am a syncretist by nature). I've come to use this theorectical framework: Aces "connect" or draw down the universal/archetypical 'element' into the physical, mundane world. Through the pips (2-10) one progresses through various physical world manifestations of an element until you reach the courts. Thus the page(Princess in Thoth type decks) is identified with earth as it is the connection between the external physical world and the internal world. Queens are linked to water, Knights(Prince in Thoth decks) to Air and Kings (Knights in Thoth type decks) to Fire. Through the courts I progress from the heaviest elements to the lightest to pure energy which completes the cycle back to the universal archetype. This allows to balance the court. Imagine a circle with Fire at the north node, Air at the east node, Water at the south node and Earth at the west node. Water and Fire then fall as opposites, Air and Earth fall as opposites as generally seen in esoteric frameworks. Fire is contained and supported by Earth on one side and fed by Air on the other. These same kinds of connections can be made for each element with its neighbors. Once these relationships are understood, they can be used to understand possible interactions between the related court cards. How do knights and queens clash? Can pages act to support and ground knights while kings give them direction? etc. peace, sechat

Mesara	17 Apr 2005
Sorry, I have to say it.. Emily Peach's Tarot Workbook sucks. Especially for beginners, and even for those who are a little more advanced. Ive never read such a pretentious, confusing, and misleading approach to tarot in my life. If I was you I would disregard EVERYTHING you have read in that book and move on, trying some of the reccommendations put forth by Thirteen and others. I know Im being mean towards this book but it really pisses me off to no end. I bought it years ago and it still makes me rant and rave when I think of it now. I hope you have better luck with some better reading...

cybercat	17 Apr 2005
Mesara, I feel the same about the book. As I said I did not buy it and it is not my study book. After I read it thru I realized that I would not recomend this book to anyone. The book I started with is the Easy Tarot Guide. It is very good but since it is a beginers book it does not cover the elements to the degree we are discussing here. Emily's book does which surpised me since that is more advance study. Sechat, I like the way you do that. Some good food for thought. Thanks

Mesara	17 Apr 2005
Good, at least you didn't waste your money on it. Wish I could say the same... :mad:

DarkAngel_Claudia	18 Apr 2005
My idea of Knights, Queens and Kings is the 12 signs of the zodiac If this is any help, I can write wich one is wich

The Elements and Court Cards thread was originally posted on 11 Apr 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.