Five of swords and smirky Joe

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 20 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Enchanted	20 Apr 2005
Hi all Been looking into the five of swords (RWS) and wondered if any one else has any experiences or thoughts on this card with reference to the guy 'smirking in the foreground, who I have affectionately dubbed 'smirky Joe'. Is it just me or does anyone else seriously want to wipe that smirk off his face? }) :laugh: The card came up in a situation where I clearly felt that it were two people feeling defeated, so who is the third? This situation did not involve a third party. Is it probable that 'smirky Joe' could represent internal fears of the two or the ego winning at the expense of the two people? Any thoughts or experiences with this card would be appreciated. Edited: spelling :eek:

mingbop	20 Apr 2005
i don't want to take attention away from your post...but i was just going to post also on this card. Once everybody has answered the first post, would they tell me their views on mine?--I asked " what kind of person is S"? ....and got 5 swds.

mingbop	20 Apr 2005
tell me what you asked .

Enchanted	20 Apr 2005
To explain: I PM'd Mingbop to apologise for "pipping at the post" and was interested to know what Mingbop's concerns were with this card. But to answer Mingbop's question this card has appeared in relation to a psuedo relationship reading as the reason for the meeting. What purpose it served. (yes it's about me! :( sniff ) Still seriously want to beat the crap out of smirky Joe!!! But am afraid that he actually represents my own fears and insecurities as winning out! Damn and blast!

Maggie Bell	20 Apr 2005
Enchanted Nearly everytime I pull this card, I find I'm trying to get away with something that I shouldn't be doing, or saying or thinking. Sneaky ... yuck! Tarot can really let ya have it sometimes, no?! Maggie

Julien	20 Apr 2005
Hello Enchanted, and Mingbop, too... I'm no fan of Smirky Joe. He's very annoying on several decks, actually. He's often a person in my life when he appears -- sometimes me, or sometimes someone else -- and always someone trying to get away with something or someone trying to pull the wool over other people's eyes. So, Mingbop, like, watch your back. Seems to me your question was direct and you got a pretty direct answer. Time will tell if it's right... But Enchanted's question seemed different... Let me make sure I understand... He came up in a sort of relationship spread in the position for the reason for the meeting? Liar Liar Pants On Fire (my nickname for the card) is the basis for why you met this other person? Hm. If the Five is the *basis* for the meeting, than it seems to me that the card probably isn't signifying the person you just met. You met this new person because of whatever Smirky is signifying. I wouldn't necessarily read this as the new person is Smirky Joe, though it does suggest there's something about the circumstances in which you met that isn't quite kosher. I'm curious to know whether you drew anything to elaborate or clarify this? Or what the other cards were for the spread? My apologies if I'm not quite clear tonight, but it seems as though the Five of Swords is operating in different ways for both of you because your questions were framed differently. Which is really interesting, actually, and suggests the some of the layers this card has going on. Or maybe your questions really weren't that different? Later, Julien

mingbop	20 Apr 2005
thanks. watch your back sounds just right. mary.

Enchanted	20 Apr 2005
Julien wrote: I wouldn't necessarily read this as the new person is Smirky Joe, though it does suggest there's something about the circumstances in which you met that isn't quite kosher. I'm curious to know whether you drew anything to elaborate or clarify this? Or what the other cards were for the spread? Thanks Julien for your post. The reason I called it a psuedo relationship spread is because it was a spread I made up on the spur of the moment and the relationship is more of a strangers in the night type thing that lasted for a few weeks than anything real. It was a situation where neither of us acted on our feelings, no one took that first step to say 'Hi' just willed the other to, well I think, I mean I know that is what I did. The spread was: 1. Why did we meet? Seven of Pentacles (Clarification Eight of Swords) 2. What lesson am I supposed to learn? Seven of Swords 3. What lesson is he supposed to be learn? Ten of Cups 4. Will we meet again? Three of Pentacles 5. Outcome of this encounter? Five of Swords Sorry the 'smirky joe' is actually outcome! (doh!). This card also appeared in another spread I did on this issue as what I think about the situation. Any thoughts would be appreciated as I have zero objectivity in this situation.

MercyMe	20 Apr 2005
You should see him in the Robin Wood deck. She dubbed the card, "Nyah, nyah nyah, nyah, nyah!" and he looks exactly like that! You want to spank him (and not in a fun way!). I usually get the card, like others have said here, when I'm thinking about doing something I shouldn't, something sneaky. Thanks a lot Tarot! :P So he serves a purpose. As for getting him as the outcome card? Hmmm...maybe the card is saying there's more to the encounter than meets the eye. Your gain might be somebody else's loss. Was he flirting with you at the expense of a wife or girlfriend in the background? Or maybe you're thinking of ways you could "win" another "chance" encounter with this person, kinda deceptively? I don't know, just thinking out loud here. ~Mercy

Fulgour	20 Apr 2005
Looking at the card we can see three people and five swords. How does this add up? The central figure has shouldered two swords, possibly those of the other two people, he is holding one sword (point down) with his right hand, his controlling hand presumably if he is right handed... two swords lay by. Where are the other two people, the owners of the two swords? If there's a story here, we're not being shown the whole picture. Has the one main figure vanquished four foes single handed... maybe he has a right to "smile" if he's been so very successful. The dejected (and now sword-less) figures seem like cry babies. Whatever this card may mean in a reading, "Smirky Joe" is cool.

Enchanted	21 Apr 2005
MercyMe wrote: As for getting him as the outcome card? Hmmm...maybe the card is saying there's more to the encounter than meets the eye. Your gain might be somebody else's loss. Was he flirting with you at the expense of a wife or girlfriend in the background? Or maybe you're thinking of ways you could "win" another "chance" encounter with this person, kinda deceptively? I don't know, just thinking out loud here. No wife or girlfriend that I know of, but then I don't know much. I did overhear a conversation that he had just broken up with someone before the flirtation. But maybe there was another interested party, I mean in him and maybe he chose her. :( sniff. The card I get when I'm considering something sneaky is more often the seven of swords and the seven appeared as my lesson in this reading. ???? Yes MercyMe definitely thinking of ways to win another chance, but not through deception, I have no idea where he is so how can I be! Fulgour I like what you said about not seeing the whole picture and I think this would relate very well to the situation as there are way too many unanswered questions. Hence the obsessive readings I've been doing! Just trying to understand and maybe fill in the blanks so I can reconcile it in myself. But I have to disagree as a 'cry-baby', ;) smirkey joe is not cool, well...only maybe in a bad boy way.

Julien	21 Apr 2005
Hey, Now that makes more sense... ;) I think that the Five of Swords in the outcome position is confusing partly because it needs to be understood in the context of those other cards. I don't think it's about your friend being a bad boy. His lesson in the encounter was the Ten of Cups (lucky guy), so he got some kind of happiness from it (a good thing, should you meet again, and that three suggests you will, though I'd look for it in a group setting of some kind). I think, perhaps, the cards are suggesting that you'll still lack clarity and feel like there's subterfuge in the outcome of the encounter unless you deal with that Seven of Swords issue. And it might not be about your dishonesty per se... I was just checking in with Mary Greer on this.... She suggests that the Seven can be about sidestepping what you don't want to face. I'm thinking that if you don't find a way to learn that lesson, this outcome card would make quite a bit of sense. As she says about the Five of Swords, all your choices may seem counterproductive and nothing will get resolved. I think that's what this Five is telling you. And, maybe give some thought to the conditions in which you met. They'll shape a lot of what you both are willing to say to one another. But if you meet again in the Three of Pentacles situation, it should feel different to you. But it might not be conducive to a long chat about what you were both up to the last time you met -- you might not be able to resolve the situation. Just some thoughts in the early morning... Julien

judylea1	21 Apr 2005
The only time I've gotten this card regarded a guy I was pretty serious about who apparently was involved in a petty romantic competition with co-workers and wound up parading a new conquest in front of me and others at a Christmas party. It was a very unpleasant experience and I haven't thought much of the guy in the card since.

Enchanted	22 Apr 2005
Julien wrote: I think, perhaps, the cards are suggesting that you'll still lack clarity and feel like there's subterfuge in the outcome of the encounter unless you deal with that Seven of Swords issue. And it might not be about your dishonesty per se... I was just checking in with Mary Greer on this.... She suggests that the Seven can be about sidestepping what you don't want to face. I'm thinking that if you don't find a way to learn that lesson, this outcome card would make quite a bit of sense. As she says about the Five of Swords, all your choices may seem counterproductive and nothing will get resolved. I think that's what this Five is telling you. Not bad Julian for early in the morning!!! :D Absolutely, that's why I am so mad at 'smirky Joe', I think I wanted to blame someone else for the reason things went pear shaped, not taking responsibility for my own role in the situation and why it turned out the way it did. Which I think I am on the way to learning, hopefully. :D Thanks for clearing that up for me. I have apologised to him in my head, for being such a moronic chicken, does that count! :laugh: Despite the above still like MercyMe, wanna spank him (and not in a good way) ;) Sorry Judylea1 that's awful!!! What a pig! (Oh and apologies I didn't intend when I started this thread to put my reading in it, so feel free to move it if it is no longer in the right forum area.)

psychic sue	22 Apr 2005
My experience with this card : sometimes the querant is Smirky Joe and sometimes he is one of the defeated figures. It depends upon the rest of the cards surrounding and the context it's read in. Just my 2p worth. Sue x

Reed	22 Apr 2005
Sue, your response really made me think! I threw a CC this morning regarding a relationship and Joe showed up in the number two (and you can take that both ways) position. I was angry/hurt by the chap's behavior with me, so I let him go this morning. All today I viewed him as Joe, while now that I have a cooler head, I see that my outcome is 10 of cups. Maybe I'm Joe . . .

Maelin	22 Apr 2005
psychic sue wrote: My experience with this card : sometimes the querant is Smirky Joe and sometimes he is one of the defeated figures. Sue x So true! I too had the 5 of swords recently in a relationship reading - only reversed. At first I thought that your "smirky Joe" was the guy in question, but in contect of the rest of the cards, he was the figures in the background, the defeated, the sad, without heart to fight anymore. You did mention that in your case the fellow in question was coming out of another relationship, and that the relationship never really took off - was he still those guys in the background, beaten, and with the no faith to start seriously once again? I ususally see this card as defeat, humiliation, and when reversed, the inability to move beyond that defeat, to ever pick up the pieces and start moving again.

Enchanted	23 Apr 2005
Maelin wrote: You did mention that in your case the fellow in question was coming out of another relationship, and that the relationship never really took off - was he still those guys in the background, beaten, and with the no faith to start seriously once again? The more I think about the more I would say that could be a very real possibility. :( Unfortunatly on both of our sides, I had just come out of a long term relationship myself. Thing is there was a definite mutual attraction and 'fate' would keep throwing us both chances to take the next step but much to our, I think, mutual frustration, neither of us did. I virtually had my 'inner voice' screaming at me at one stage! Still big lesson right there, never ignore the inner voice and too bad if you think that the timing isn't right, you just aren't ready, when the heart calls, it calls, throw caution to the wind and the rest can work itself out. Then maybe you too can have something to 'smirk' about! :) Aaah there is something very cathartic about just getting this out.....aaahhhhh, feel better! :D Sue, you are so right on with this card, figuring out who you are (or querent) and who the others are is so important with this card. Reed I hope you figure it out and get your ten!!! :)

Julien	23 Apr 2005
Ugh! I pulled Smirky Joe in a relationship spread early this a.m. in the position of "the current situation" . . . Funny thing -- our situations are awfully similar, Enchanted! Though instead of the Seven of Swords, I got the Nine... Not so much fears from past emotions, as unwillingness to deal with certain difficulties... Surprised it wasn't the Two of Swords -- that's the usual card for this situation... Just had to share my empathy... The time ain't right at all, but maybe it's time to shake things up a bit... ;) Julien

Maelin	23 Apr 2005
Perhaps there has been some sunspot activity, or a planetary alignment - the relationship spread I mentioned earlier had the 5 of swords reversed in the current situation card, and the 6 of swords as the challenge all these swords crossing each other - Sigh - two flowers who keep leaning towards each other, too afraid of getting hurt again for either one of them to be a bee! That smirky Joe - in this case representing all that hurt from failed marriages and relationships and the humiliation and defeat that can follow it - watching smirking as we turn away from the new chance - You're right, I would like to give him a smack - and definitely not in a nice way!

Enchanted	24 Apr 2005
Maelin wrote: Sigh - two flowers who keep leaning towards each other, too afraid of getting hurt again for either one of them to be a bee! Wow maelin what a great analogy for the modern relationship scene. It seems everyone has baggage and fears that sometimes prevent them from taking the risk of being 'stung'. And while I realise some people are highly allergic to bees in at literal sense, for most, yeah it hurts and itchs for a while but you do get over it. In reference to the five of swords in this case, these two people will continue to feel the pain of defeat until one can summon the courage to 'fight back' and say 'No I do not accept this'. Either one of the defeated guys could easily pick up the swords that 'smirky' has not and strike out and the outcome could change.

Reed	25 Apr 2005
Enchanted wrote: Reed I hope you figure it out and get your ten!!! :) Thanks, Enchanted! All the best Reed

The Five of swords and smirky Joe thread was originally posted on 20 Apr 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.