Marseille for Beginners

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Little Baron	21 Apr 2005
I felt inspired to ask these questions after reading a post 'asking for suggestions of a deck for beginners'. When people here ask for a suggestion of a deck for a beginner to the tarot, most of the time, the RWS is given as the main option. A few of the reasons, i imagine, is that some think that the scenic-minors are easier to interpret than those that have the Marseille pattern or have minors that are not scenic, that there is a lot of reading material about and illustrated with the RWS cards and many beginner packs come with Waite's pack. As I have stated in another post, I have began to study the Marseille in the last year or so and now that I have a hold on it, I am understanding more, developing layers and interpretation quicker and my readings are getting, on the whole, more acurate. I read a post recently (I do not remember who the poster was) and the author said that they learnt with a Marseille; unaware that other decks were out there. They 'got on with it' and it has been their tool for a long time. I was wondering if anyone else here, rather than turning to the Marseille after studying other systems for a long time, actually began with a ToM deck and it is their default. I was happy to see a starter deck in a shop recently, with a photo-reproduction of the Conver with it. Also, I purchased a beginners pack that came with a Fournier. It made a pleasant change. Would anyone here suggest a Marseille to the beginner? Having the internet and being exposed to forums such as this, which holds great reading material (for example, jmd's 'How may this card be read?' threads), surely the prospect of learning with a Marseille and un-scenic minors would not be as daunting as it once was. Besides, it is what we are used to and if a newbie has no background knowledge of the tarot, one deck is going to be as easy or hard to understand as another, if there is enough support and reading material out there to help you get started. So, why not begin with a Marseille? Interested in hearing your responses. LB

Sulis	21 Apr 2005
The only reason that I recommend RWS and RWS based decks for beginners is because most of the books available which are aimed at beginners use the Rider Waite deck. There are virtually no english language books around about the TdM. Most beginners, when they buy a deck want to read about their deck and how to read it too. Sulis xx

Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
I learnt with RWS because at the time I lived in England, and when I asked the shop - what should I start with? - that's the deck they showed me. If I'd been living here, they would have handed me a Grimaud! I don't believe th French, the Portuguese, Spaniards, Swiss or Belgians are more intelligent than the British, Americans or Australians. So this habit of saying - start with a deck that has minors with scenic add-ons, because it's much easier to learn, is just that: a habit. But a rather odd one: like saying: French is easier to learn than Italian. Well, err, why? Like Sulis, one advantage I can see for a monoglot anglophone to start with RWS is because of the wealth of literature out there that discusses it, compared with the Marseille. But with fora like this one and the specialised Tarot of Marseille Study Forum in English that gap is bridged. And it seems that gradually more English-speaking authors are cottoning onto the Marseille (e.g. Robert Place in his new book). It's coming - at last! :) The more English-speakers turn to the Marseille, the greater the market for books.

Little Baron	21 Apr 2005
If I was asked by someone who was not connected to the internet, I may suggest something else (here in the UK) but if someone asks, that has found their way to this forum, there is a lot of great information on the Marseille, as you already said, Helvetica, here and on other sites. I look forward to reading the Place book. He speaks about the Marseille a lot in his accompanying book to the 'Buddha Tarot'. LB

Clau	21 Apr 2005
ARRRRGHHHH!!!! I lost the post!!! so I'l try to remember what I said... I think it is what Sulis suggested: the lack of books to read about TdM. BUT having all the forums available now on internet, I don't see how that is a problem anymore. I guess what makes the RWS more recommended is the "scenic" minor arcana which is supposed to be easier to learn, but let me tell you, I don't know how it is easier, it took me a long time to get what the RWS minors were about. I guess is like learning to drive: you don't know how to, so what is the difference learning in a car with automatic transmission o in a car with a stick? I don't know. If you try both, you'll know how to drive both, same happens with tarot. PLUS you get more than one vision which -in all subjects- is always most welcome and helps you to broaden your universe no? Love, Clau

Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
I agree absolutely, Clau. I feel very privileged to be able to study several Tarot systems. It broadens my understanding of "Tarot"; it helps me understand what is essential in Tarot for me and above all - it makes sure I do not reduce Tarot to a bunch of memorised meanings (even meanings I have come to myself in notebooks). It forces me to engage much more with the symbols I am seeing on the cards I have in front of me. But I would still say - start with one, and go with it for some time before you attempt another. Not everyone has the time - or the mental agility - to be able to take two new - but distinct - things at the same time.

Little Baron	21 Apr 2005
I understand you exactly Clau. There is this idea that having a picture with a scene and characters on the minor arcana is going to make the process of understanding that card easier or more memorable. This doesn't really work for me. I look at it and want to know firstly, what it means, and secondly, how the autor/artist came to that interpretation. I don't just take it as red that that image or 'idea from the artist' is the correct one. Having it there almost clouds over my understanding of what a certain card 'could' mean to me. I want to reach an image through my learning of the symbols and numbers; my image may not necessarily be the same as an artist that has interpreted that already. Therefore, in those decks, I am working from an interpretation of a card before I have had a chance to formulate my own. LB

Clau	21 Apr 2005
Helvetica wrote: But I would still say - start with one, and go with it for some time before you attempt another. Not everyone has the time - or the mental agility - to be able to take two new - but distinct - things at the same time. Yes dear, totally, one thing at a time....is just my anxious nature that betrays me...LOL I'm just so glad to have such calmed and pondering friends...LOL But, but, having both at the same time allows you to at least look at the differences...no? NO CLAU, ONE THING AT A TIME!!!!! LOL!! Love, Clau

Emily	21 Apr 2005
My first deck purchased about 23 years ago was the 1JJ Swiss - I struggled with this deck and just one book - the one by Stuart Kaplan for this deck. I knew nothing about numerology or the structure of reading a Marseille deck - and at that time, no internet, I had no way of finding out more - it didn't take long for my interest to wain. I think too that if there were more books on how to begin reading a Marseille deck they would be more popular. I still only have two books on how to read a Marseille but a numerology book is a good start but you still have to learn how to read the patterns on the cards - flowers, petals, etc. Also on here - there is more information on this site than in many books. :)

ncefafn	21 Apr 2005
I love your analogy, Clau. Theoretically, anyone who can drive a manual transmission can drive an automatic transmission, and vice versa. However, in the process, it seems like you have to unlearn some of the things you had begun to take for granted. Like almost everyone in the US, it seems, my first deck was a Rider-Waite. I hated it, it was ugly, I didn't like the colors, but nevertheless it was my first deck and I was supposed to learn with it. Once I did, and I found other RWS clone decks more to my aesthetic liking, it was like riding a bicycle. Oh, here's the four of pentacles, you're being miserly. Then I got my first TdM and it was a "supposed to" thing again. I didn't really like the art, and those unillustrated minors -- wtf! But I printed out a little numerological cheat sheet and started plowing my way through with it. Imagine my surprise when I started to read those minors in an intuitive fashion! So for everyone out there who thinks that TdM requires vast quantities of study and theory and no intuition, I'm here to tell you it just ain't so. However, there is a mental re-adjustment that comes when you get out of your sports car with the stick and get into the sedan with the automatic transmission. :) Kim

Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
ncefafn wrote: IHowever, there is a mental re-adjustment that comes when you get out of your sports car with the stick and get into the sedan with the automatic transmission. :) Nah! If you go from RWS to Marseille it's the other way round ;) Agree with everything Kim has said about intuition and the Marseille. I'll add - it stretches the imagination much further than any RWS deck I have (much as I enjoy them). Like speeding down a motorway in an Alpha Romeo on your way to the Riviera, deciding to look for petrol, taking a left into a country lane and finding an amazing table d'hôte that just happens to have a three star chef and some delicious unknown wine - and a gorgeous neighbour is also dining alone so...:*

Clau	21 Apr 2005
Maybe then, we should create a RWSTdM Deck!!!! *Clau ducks and runs fast fast fast, before Helvetica can reach her!!!!*

Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
Clau wrote: *Clau ducks and runs fast fast fast, before Helvetica can reach her!!!!* How does one say- one can only be one thing or another, in Spanish ;)? (I mean - try being pregnant and not pregnant at the same time! :P) What would it look like?

Clau	21 Apr 2005
Helvetica wrote: How does one say- one can only be one thing or another, in Spanish ;)? (I mean - try being pregnant and not pregnant at the same time! :P) What would it look like? It would go like this: Solo puedes ser una cosa u otra, no las dos al mismo tiempo... And trying to be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time would look GREAT!!! imagine: 8 months pregnant and totally in shape!! LOL

Little Baron	21 Apr 2005
I am so surprised that nobody here has decided to write a book on the Marseille in English; aside from it being very popular and a long-awaited edition to many people's tarot library, I am sure it could be a great money-spinner for the author as well. (Hint, hint to all those knowledgable AT 'Marseille' readers (past:( and present)) LB

stella01904	21 Apr 2005
MM ~ Marseilles often doesn't appeal to beginners, for some silly reason. Everybody wants "pretty" nowadays. I think as long as a person understands the Trumps and has a good basic grasp of numerology, a book is unnecessary, but might just sell, anyway - what people want can be quite different from what they need. I tend to agree with the Silver Ravenwolf method for teaching new readers: No books for three weeks! NONE! :smoker: BB, Stella

stella01904	21 Apr 2005
Helvetica wrote: Nah! If you go from RWS to Marseille it's the other way round ;) Agree with everything Kim has said about intuition and the Marseille. I'll add - it stretches the imagination much further than any RWS deck I have (much as I enjoy them). Like speeding down a motorway in an Alpha Romeo... MM ~ That's IT! Marseilles is like driving a stick! A floor-shift! Thanks! BB, Stella

Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
Clau wrote: It would go like this: Solo puedes ser una cosa u otra, no las dos al mismo tiempo... And trying to be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time would look GREAT!!! imagine: 8 months pregnant and totally in shape!! LOL Ok Clau, you win - you crack me up! :D So, when so you start your pregnant-not pregnant deck ;)?

Little Baron	21 Apr 2005
Very good point, Stella!!!! People can find out about the trumps more extensively on this forum than they could from many books; the same, for numerology. I believe in working with the 'cards' and not the books as well. (I have to ask, as it always baffles me ... there is probably a really simple answer to this ... but what does MM and BB mean in your posts. It has been bugging me for ages, lol) Best LB

Fulgour	21 Apr 2005
Tarot comes to each person in a different way, and the world is a big place, but how it happens is much more of a mystery than with what deck. Here and there, by many a strange chance and inspired twist people have made a connection to what we call Tarot, yet always in their own way. I think every deck has the power to create that special magic that comes from thinking so deeply about things in a new light, and with 'your' deck.

Clau	21 Apr 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: Very good point, Stella!!!! ......(I have to ask, as it always baffles me ... there is probably a really simple answer to this ... but what does MM and BB mean in your posts. It has been bugging me for ages, lol) Best LB Ditto!!

stella01904	21 Apr 2005
LittleBuddha wrote: (I have to ask, as it always baffles me ... there is probably a really simple answer to this ... but what does MM and BB mean in your posts. It has been bugging me for ages, lol) MM ~ "MM" is "Merry Meet", "BB" is "Blessed Be" or "Bright Blessings" (as opposed to "Dark Blessings", the ones that teach you stuff - necessary, but...ouch!) It's a Craft thing, but not a secret. Back to Marseilles, books are fun, I just think when people start with books, they become dependent, they don't learn to read. Nobody learned to walk, drive, ride a bike, any of that by just trying to memorise a lot of stuff from a book. BB, Stella

Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
I love those expressions, ancient, light-stepping and dignified. Like the Tarot de Marseille...

Rusty Neon	21 Apr 2005
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Fudugazi	21 Apr 2005
stella01904 wrote: books are fun, I just think when people start with books, they become dependent, they don't learn to read. Nobody learned to walk, drive, ride a bike, any of that by just trying to memorise a lot of stuff from a book. Ah, that's very true, Stella! Books can illuminate and teach - but the best teachers know that only practice and personal interraction by the initiate will really produce results. I am getting far more out of my daily head-scratchings with the Marseille than out of books - even the magnificent Jodo, whom I revere. But even he says - go out and do it for yourself! Happy blessings to you too!

Rosanne	21 Apr 2005
Helvetica wrote: How does one say- one can only be one thing or another, in Spanish ;)? (I mean - try being pregnant and not pregnant at the same time! :P) What would it look like? hehe I have seen many a Bride like that. ~Rosanne

Clau	22 Apr 2005
Rosanne wrote: hehe I have seen many a Bride like that. ~Rosanne ROFL!!!! ROFLPIMP!!!

stella01904	22 Apr 2005
Helvetica wrote: I am getting far more out of my daily head-scratchings with the Marseille than out of books - even the magnificent Jodo, whom I revere. MM ~ I think the best thing that ever happened to my Tarot reading was working with non-Tarot European oracle decks - the ones you can't find books on in english! Being "forced" to just sit and consider the implications of a dog, or a key, or a bouquet, and apply it to a question, wires new pathways in the brain. ;) Marseilles is somewhat related! BB, Stella

Clau	22 Apr 2005
Yup! I agree with that, you know, there aren't that many good books on TdM in Spanish either, mostly fishy fortune telling type (not to offend the millions of self declared fortune tellers here on At, hope you catch my meaning), so I guess up until Jodo's book, I didn't read anything really worth reading about TdM. So as Helvetica mentioned, I think the best way to approach the TdM is just you with the cards. Sure, it is the long hard way, but It'll allow you to bond a lot better with the deck, and to really make it your own. When you actually get what TdM is about on your own, let me tell you the blood, sweat and tears will be really worth it. (GRAMMAR ANYONE? LOL) Not having a book shouldn't stop you form getting into TdM or any tarot tradition for that matter. I insist, it's the long way, but totally worth it. I know it has been like that for me. As we say down here: "Al que quiera celeste, que le cueste" roughly translated to: if you want it, work for it!!!

The Marseille for Beginners thread was originally posted on 21 Apr 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.