The Book!

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 23 Apr 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mingbop	23 Apr 2005
I have read for a long time, know the meanings of the cards (but keep on learning new & expanded ones on here!) BUT...when I read ---I must have the book. You know how, in the thread re reversals, somebody said you use your intuition re the meaning of the card--well I use the book. The correct take on the card sort of jumps out at me, the print looks clear and all the other print blurs...i don't even look at the art work on the card. I would very much like to know if anybody else is like this ! (or...OOOH AM i UNIQUE ???)...or does it just mean I have no intuition !!! mary.

The Dreamer	23 Apr 2005
That's how I do it. And I do have intuition (the more "psychic" kind, not the "putting things together" kind), which comes up in other situations- but not when I read tarot. I like to keep the two seperate. My intuition seems to be there when I need it in the moment, but when I need an in depth examination, I use tarot, and I can be sure that it is not an answer which comes from my imagination or my regular intuition. This helps me cover more bases. What you described of certain print standing out- I get phenomena like that as well. Usually in regard to books or cds which my "higher self" or whatever it is is guiding me to, the color will glow out more strongly. I haven't had that effect with print, and it doesn't happen when I read the books for tarot- but it sounds like a similar phenomenon. And yes, I do reversals by the book as well, for those decks which I use reversals for. To have to come up with gradations of meaning for reversals which are not based on a solidified meaning would be very ambiguous to me. I do look a the art work on the card, and it does add to the effect of the message, but really the pictures for me a just a mnemonic device for remembering the meanings.

psychic sue	25 Apr 2005
I get the book out when I can't fit a particular card into a reading, and yes Mary, certain text does leap out ! It's part of the psychic link I think. It's just another style of reading, and if it works for you, then fine! Sue x

Moongold	25 Apr 2005
Mingbop, I often read the book too. With some decks the meaning is quite unique to the artist and it's necessary to read the book carefully. Some decks that spring to mind like this - the Shining Tribe, Tarot of the Sephiroth, Hudes, Buddha, Ancient Egyptian, Tarot of the Spirit ..... lots more too! Apart from being necessary to understand the symbolism, I think it is really important to know what the artist's visions were, if they have left these on record. I know we can still inter pret ourselves but it seems kind of respectful to read what the artist thought about his or her own work. Moongold

Imagemaker	25 Apr 2005
When I used to do the I Ching, I always worked with the "leaping print" mechanism in the books. I'd read the explanation of the hexagram and specific words or a line would jump out at me. Bibliomancy works like this for me, too. Asking a question of the cosmos, then opening a book (those of traditional wisdom seem to have a strong spiritual bond for this type of communication) to a page and finding a clue or answer. You can also do it with a tarot book and open to a card . . . very useful when you don't have the actual deck.

Gwynne	25 Apr 2005
Imagemaker wrote: When I used to do the I Ching, I always worked with the "leaping print" mechanism in the books. I'd read the explanation of the hexagram and specific words or a line would jump out at me. Bibliomancy works like this for me, too. Asking a question of the cosmos, then opening a book (those of traditional wisdom seem to have a strong spiritual bond for this type of communication) to a page and finding a clue or answer. You can also do it with a tarot book and open to a card . . . very useful when you don't have the actual deck. Many fundamentalist Christians use bibliomancy, although they would vehemently deny they are using a form of divination. In fact at a church I used to attend (Pentecostal church) the pastor's wife would often have a Bible and if you had a question or concern she would open it to a random page, stick her finger in the middle of it and read from there. She was considered to have a very strong prophetic gift, and said to walk in the Holy Spirit. Honestly? It was no different than what we do with Tarot cards or Runes, Pendulums or I-Ching!

mingbop	25 Apr 2005
gwynne thats really interesting and really funny! they are so holy too , but we're sisters under the skin! It cheers me to know that you all do the same as me....

Imagemaker	25 Apr 2005
If only she'd worn a gypsy outfit and welcomed non-fundamentalists, how much good she could have done in healing divisions (and I'm not making fun--to truly welcome others without judgment would do the fundamentalists so much good!)

Gwynne	25 Apr 2005
Imagemaker wrote: If only she'd worn a gypsy outfit and welcomed non-fundamentalists, how much good she could have done in healing divisions (and I'm not making fun--to truly welcome others without judgment would do the fundamentalists so much good!) They tended to be a bit more welcoming than others. They welcomed me, and they knew I was a witch! Granted, they spent the entire time I was there trying to convert me... but the pastor and I actually had some wonderful and deep conversations!

Imagemaker	25 Apr 2005
Yes, it's that welcoming "so we can change you" that I have a problem with . . . Sorry, moderators, we've wandered off topic!

yusia	27 Apr 2005
psychic sue wrote: I get the book out when I can't fit a particular card into a reading Same here. :)

mingbop	27 Apr 2005
i JUST LOVE OFF TOPIC, ITS OFTEN A LOT MORE INTERESTING THAN ONNIT ! LIKE THIS DISCUSSION IS !

mike gorth	27 Apr 2005
I keep the book around me but don't use it. Your first impression and no bias are the best ways to read a card for instance. The tower usually means destruction and sudden but also getting rid of the old. I had a reading where I got the feeling the tower meant to rebuild a relationship and a few weeks later I was right. The books are helpful for those "moments" but try reading without it and then compare it to the book. Eventually you will be 'weened' off of it.

mingbop	27 Apr 2005
mike--am giggling. I must be the world's slowest weaner then !-- 42 years and counting, since I first read tarot ! oooh think i'll throwe a tantrum noo and then go out wi my pals and buy sweeties ----YAAY!

The Dreamer	30 Apr 2005
mike gorth wrote: I keep the book around me but don't use it. Your first impression and no bias are the best ways to read a card for instance. The tower usually means destruction and sudden but also getting rid of the old. I had a reading where I got the feeling the tower meant to rebuild a relationship and a few weeks later I was right. The books are helpful for those "moments" but try reading without it and then compare it to the book. Eventually you will be 'weened' off of it. I would have to say that those who use an intuitionist approach to interpreting should not assume that such an approach is superior to using a more "set meaninings" approach. There is no reason why anyone should try to convert anyone else to their own approach. A person can tell whether their own tarot readings have been accurate and useful. If a person uses fixed meanings, or if a person regularly refers to a book, and gets good readings- I fail to see how the reading which was done that way can be seen as less mature, or as a lesser form of reading. I have tried to get "first impressions" from cards, and to read them in that way- and I got utterly useless readings like that. Based on that experience, I could tell people that "Your own impressions are helpful for those moments when the book seems not to make sense, but eventually you will be weaned off of your first impressions." I see no reason to say that. If others get good results by doing it in any other way, that is what counts. The I Ching is a book. It is used for divination. Stichomancy is divination. It uses books. I don't see any justification for the idea that set meanings are inferior, or that words are inferior. And I see no reason for the idea that the ultimate goal of anyone who does divination should be the reading of random patterns based purely on intuition. I use the book, not because someone wrote it down, and not because it is authoritative. I use it because I want my meanings to be clear. I am doing divination precisely because I want to get information that does not come from my own imagination. This does not ammount to "parroting". "Parroting" means to say something with no understanding of its meaning. When I read from the book, what I get is a quite precise meaning; one which shows that it was right for that moment, and one which I can trust. That is a benefit of using a book. If I want to contemplate the cards, I look at the cards. If I want to tune into something intuitively, I do so (and often it happens automatically). But when I am doing divination, I use a book. I do not wish to "grow out" of that, and see no reason to do so. Divination will speak to us in the form which is most useful for us. We don't need to try to conform to a "right" way of doing it.

mingbop	30 Apr 2005
I think that's one of the best things about tarot--that we all do our own thing. There's a book for folk who need the book---and nice art for those who need pictures....I had a lot of doubts & questions when I started using it for medium-type work...but its ok, it works just the same. Doesn't seem to matter if a person is here or passed--if they're around , then you pick them up. Maybe this is why the tarot has lasted so long, and has so many fans --because its so deep and wide-ranging ?

mike gorth	30 Apr 2005
Sooorrrrrry dreamer. Didn't mean to offend you so but I was just offering a different way to approach it. Why do you get so touchy? geez. I didn't think I would get attacked. I was just offering another way but apparently its against the law in indiana. ;)

Julien	30 Apr 2005
Well... I sometimes get stuck on a meaning for a card, especially if I haven't seen it pop up in awhile or if it's been coming up a lot with a specific meaning in my dailies. Then when it pops up in a reading for someone else or something else, I tend to get puzzled... And then, thank God for those books!!!! It's like oiling the wheels or something, and suddenly I am reminded of all the possible meanings for any one card, but within the limits of the imagery of that card. I, too, tend to have the right text pop out at me. I think it's a bit like using a thesaurus or a dictionary when you write, actually... You need the variations in the meanings, the synonyms and antonyms, and you can't always think of them right in that moment so, out comes the reference material... I think it's just another way of being intuitive. I don't really think you're either intuitive or not -- rather people's intuitions work differently, and need to be channeled through whatever it is they need to channel it through... I mean, you still have to relate that card to the one's around it, and there's no ONE specific meaning, even in the books. You still have to decide how the card is nuanced in this specific reading. So I keep the book(s) around and I consult them more often with reversals than anything else, and also in spreads with a large number of cards as I tend to get a bit of sensory overload then, and need the ideas in the books to get the images to speak to me. Juien

The Dreamer	30 Apr 2005
mike gorth wrote: Sooorrrrrry dreamer. Didn't mean to offend you so but I was just offering a different way to approach it. Why do you get so touchy? geez. I didn't think I would get attacked. I was just offering another way but apparently its against the law in indiana. ;) Hey Mike, no attack. Indeed, "another way" is exactly what using the book is. Given that it is repeated again and again that everyone should eventually let go of the book, I think it is important to state that I do not believe that is necessary. If someone is asking for advice on how to make their readings better because they aren't working, then offering suggestions about alternate ways would make sense. (Even then, there would be a big difference between saying "you might try..." and "eventually you will..." or "best" [which presumes that anyone who tried the non-book method would find it superior.]) But to tell everyone that there is one best way which they should switch to, when they are getting readings which do make sense, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No hard feelings, surely. And regarding benefits of this method again- I, like Julien, often tend to get sensory overload when looking at too many images. It is important to use an alternate method for me- one which uses fewer cards, and focuses more upon words. These are personal methods. What it comes down to, as I said before, of course, is what works for the individual.

Thuvia	30 Apr 2005
I tend to use a book alot also, being more verbal than visual. I understand the basic cards, but somethimes something just doesn't click, so I start reading meanings/descriptions. I dont read for others much, so never really worried about appearances :) . One reading I did for hubby pops to mind. The queen of swords came up, I told him about her, and after a few words he stated it was me.. never saw myself that way, so I was a bit thrown off. When I laid out the cards, I could see a cohesive reading was developing, but something was missing. I focused on the queen, cause she seemed out of place to me and courts often stump me. After reading a couple things, I came across a word, barren, normally I took this as barren emotionaly for this card. My mind knew what I had, but I didn't at the time, I stopped reading and went back to staring absently at the spread, and somewhere gears were turning. Then it hit me, there were many cards dealing with fertility, children or lack there of. Ding! Everything fell together. (though, most of the cards were 3's or 6's, haven't quite put that together, but it stood out for me, so there's probably something there, heh). I guess I use the book similar to dreamer, some how it calms my mind down a bit and allows me to focus on what's really there.

Cerulean	30 Apr 2005
I saw in another thread that you might look for tarot decks soon...and I remembered one deck that you don't need a book for reversals, don't have to worry, as it was designed not to be used reversed.... It's the Hallowquest Arthurian Tarot. I think I might have used this deck to not work with reversals at one time... I just remembered that. And to keep this off-topic, perhaps you can investigate the King Arthurian Revialist Costume Faires and get Revivalist Renaissance costume of your choice as your wander along the Wastelands... Or among the heather... Cerulean

mike gorth	30 Apr 2005
Dear Dreamer, I'm sorry that I took your post as an attack. I didn't mean to sound superior and I'm sorry you took it that way. Really sorry that this was taken out of context. I should have pm -ed you but I want to show to all the world that we aren't enemies (muahahahaha) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

jmd	30 Apr 2005
At times the widest apparent divides leads to the greatest clarity as discussion takes ever greater spiralling insights into its vortex. I personally usually suggest that when one reads a spread, or meditates on a (or more than one) card, the person seeks to actually look at the card in question, and allow an insight or narrative (ie, story) to develop or emerge. This does not of course mean that the insights of the many people who have written books are to be discarded, but rather that in the moment of reflection, the card be permitted to speak more than the insights that others have had about it in the past. Of course, what will likely occur over time is that a common approximation to the meaning of the card(s) emerges. Even with the I-Ching, though some indeed use the commentaries that were written many centuries ago, a careful study of the individual lines in their position, the trigrammes in their direction, and either the fixity of a line or its movement from yang to yin, or yin to yang, all give insights into the hexagramme beyond the commentary (which after all is no other than the insights of the commentator given equivalent reflections). As mentioned, however, there are many who read the I-Ching as a simple reading out from the written text, and there are likewise many who read Tarot in a similar fashion. I personally have no doubt that this does not prevent the reader from understanding the words penned by another as they draw a spread and then proceed to read what the book has to say about the card or even the card in that specific position. An example of the precision suggested for such can be found in automated readings written by Payne-Towler on, for example, Tarot.com, or in such a meticulously presented book by Colin's Tarot: reading the future. In each case, of course, what is also important are the insights slowly and methodically gained by its respective authors. One can perhaps presume and hope that, over time, a more or less commonality of insight emerges with regards to the meaning of the cards. Yet, it is also undoubtedly the case that in divination there will always also be that important 'space' between the acquired card meaning and the insight pertinent to the situation at hand to shine forth - whether one uses a book written with the insights of another to assist, or not.

Moongold	30 Apr 2005
I think the idea of difference has been well explored already but I'd like to add a couple of things. People's different approaches may depend on the education, their background in reading, personality preferences and state of physical and emotional well being. Sometimes if I am really tired my memory may not be so good and I might check a book to trigger a though or stream of ideas. When I was new to Tarot (just three years ago now) I had to check books a lot because I had no idea of the symbolism. My education has been in other areas. I think also that some of us develop our skills the more we are exposed to Tarot and read with it. We develop our intuition and weaving skills. I think in Tarot images quite a lot now. How interesting thatis to experience! I know I could actually read anything now and make sense of it :) - with varying degrees of competence of course. I do like to read the author's work because it is interesting to see where s/he is coming from and it is an acknowledgement of his or her creation. But each of us finds a style and preference of our own.

The Dreamer	30 Apr 2005
jmd wrote: One can perhaps presume and hope that, over time, a more or less commonality of insight emerges with regards to the meaning of the cards. Yet, it is also undoubtedly the case that in divination there will always also be that important 'space' between the acquired card meaning and the insight pertinent to the situation at hand to shine forth - whether one uses a book written with the insights of another to assist, or not. To me, it is not even about what the cards mean in themselves (when I use them for divination). It is about finding the reflection of the situation which occurs in the moment of divination. I believe that if the meaning is rich enough, then almost anything can be used for divination. I think there is a distinction to be made between the kind of divination which is based upon an external meaning, and one which is based upon storytelling or imagination, or intuition (regardless of how that is defined). The only storytelling which happens in my style of divination is that which the cards (whose meaning I make sure is defined beforehand) tell me. What is put together is my own understanding of the situation which was inquired about, through small increments- I tend to use one card at a time for each question, with the answers sometimes guiding me about what to ask next, and my intuition sometimes guiding what to ask next. After a session of that, my insight grows. It is not about using the insights of another. It is just a way to dip into a pool of meaning, which, for each particular question, was preset. My concern in using a set meaning for the cards is so that there is clarity in the moment of divination. Sometimes, I will use different books for the same deck at different times (as with the Thoth.) It does not matter to me whether one interpretation is more true in regard to the cards' "real meaning" as cards. What matters is whether the meaning which I got in response to a question shows itself to be true for that particular question- that it fits the situation (past, present, or future) that I asked about when I asked about it. And I believe that I can only know for sure whether it was true or not by keeping constraints on my own interpretation of each card. I actually do not use the I Ching anymore, because the meanings which I found it to contain have not been useful to the questions which I've asked so far. The same goes for runes. Neither gave me false answers, but neither gave me what I consider to be useful answers. Different forms of divination are important to consider when considering the use of preset meanings for Tarot, I think- because it goes to the question of whether there really is a meaning which we are getting from the divination tool, or whether the meaning comes only from ourselves. It is important to me to know that the meaning does not come from myself. That is what makes divination so mysterious to me, and almost supernatural, or spiritual. It is to recieve meaning which can give one guidance and insight, which does not come from ones'self, and one's own imagination alone. It is the transcendent touching the temporal. It is advice, and understanding, which comes through the tool of tarot- which I think has nothing to do with tarot in itself, or anything which has been written about it. I see it as a way by which the divine, or at least something which goes beyond our own understanding, can communicate with us. To me it comes down to- do the particular cards (or whatever device is being used for divination) which were drawn for a particular question really have meaning in regard to the question which was asked, in a way which does not exist only in the mind of the reader. In my experience, they do, and I find that a mystery.

mingbop	01 May 2005
it wasnt about reversals pet...it was just that I liked to use the book. And the heather is too bloody WET to wander in !! please send air tickets to california at once .

Maelin	01 May 2005
I still use the books - 25 years later. I have yet to find a reading where even with the trusty RWS, that Ms Pollack's 78 degrees of Wisdom doesn't have some insight to offer. Perhaps it is because of people's different learning styles - or maybe more their thinking styles. I have admitted in other threads that I have as much intuition as a thumbtack, so for me, the images themselves don't speak, only through the associations with concepts I have come to be familiar with over the years. But as an addict to Tarot writing, my mind becomes filled with layers of other people's ideas, and for me, clearing those ideas away and letting my intuition through would result in...........hmmm....pretty much nothing!! I often find it helps to read some additional insight - not the LWB insight, as I might agree the keyword idea will eventually plow itself into your memory, but even there, if in 20 years a card has always meant a certain perspective, even if you read that meaning 100 times, the third paragraph or the extra keyword would have skimmed right through your brain and now the card is discordant in the reading, then you reread the entry, and you get an "AHA" Those moments are the rush, another puzzle piece fits together in the universe, that is what makes the tarot journey a joy for me. Best wishes

Cerulean	01 May 2005
Mingbop says: It wasnt about reversals pet...it was just that I liked to use the book. And the heather is too bloody WET to wander in !! please send air tickets to california at once . Cerulean replies: (straight) I am very glad to know others enjoy using the books with their tarots. I must say I do like a good book with the deck as well...I think some decks such as the Hallowquest and Druidcraft are richer for the great books that come with the decks. I would recommend them if you like tarots with outdoor scenery so you might enjoy virtual beautiful weather with text... (naughty--I can delete if moddies/Mingbop says too-too-shocking) We've had a more wet than dry Spring up North, so I think some of you must be raining on our parades with scooting wet-winds down our way. If you can export a youngish 30-something with a delightful accent for my sister to bring to tea, we will take night jobs to earn tickets...although you and Mr. Scotts may end up taking a slow boat and earning extra money doing tarot readings for the crew! Bon Voyage, Cerulean

Rosanne	01 May 2005
This question of book meanings and intuition meanings has been rolling around in my brain for days now-and I have appreciated the different views on the subject in this and other threads. I can explain how I do it in a form of analogy. When I got my Tarot for the first time I didn't have a clue about the meanings, tho some cards were self explanatory. I am glad I did not start with Marseilles, I would have come to a standstill in Tarot. I view what happens to me when I read like going into the Supermarket with a shopping List (the Question). I approach the frozen food freezer(my brain,heart,soul), with its multitude of different brands of peas and beans(cards). etc. Some brands I have read about, some I have learned about by living, some I have seen on the Forum, some have clear pictures on the packet etc etc. I look at my list, I look in the freezer, sometimes I take whats on top, sometimes I dig around for the right packet and sometimes my hand goes to a packet that I have never considered before. All of a sudden I have the right brand in my hand- it fits the list out of all the accumulated frozen stuff in there. I have had times when I stand by the freezer and I can't decide so I recall what I read to help me. Sometimes my hand has a mystical life of its own and I choose something totally unexpected. Its all shopping for the list. ~Rosanne

mingbop	02 May 2005
I have a delightful accent and I'm prepared to lie aboot my age ! BOOKING FLIGHTS AS WE SPEAK ! YAAAY! SUN!

The The Book! thread was originally posted on 23 Apr 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.