A tale of two readers

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 12 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

elysgrl	12 May 2005
I had an interesting/disturbing experience last night. Be warned, this is long. And there is a question at the end, so bear with me. I brought my Gilded deck to my waitress job with me (as I always do) and since it was slow, the bartender--my good friend Ellen--asked me to throw a CC for her. She reads too, at about the same level I do, so we usually mull over the spread together and share insights and opinions. We laid out the cards right on the bar, and one of her customers noticed what we were doing. "Hey, are those tarot cards?" she asked. "You keep them wrapped in silk, don't you?" Oh brother, I thought. Some amateur is going to try and tell me what to do with my cards. (I know, not the most charitable thought in the world. My ego was already scrabbling for high ground.) I explained to her that I keep them in a nice wooden box in the bag they came in, and that I cleanse them regularly. "Nope, you gotta keep them in silk." And then she grabbed her beer and ambled over to get a closer look. At first she just watched while I was sharing with Ellen what I thought the cards meant. I got to Card 3 before she started contradicting me. Ellen had drawn the Empress for the Basis/Foundation card, so I was approaching it as a subconscious influence. The woman shook her head, picked up the card. "Uh, uh, that's YOU, honey," she said to Ellen. She started pointing out tiny details and colors, telling Ellen about herself. She somehow knew from looking at the card that Ellen was a Cancer. She put the card down, and I continued with the reading, trying not to show how annoyed I was. This woman was stealing my thunder! (Down, ego!) I got to Card 5, Crowning, the 5 of Cups. "Okay, Ellen, this is what you're aware of....." "No, that's her husband." Well, we had already established that Card 2, the King of Swords, was Ellen's husband. Besides this is Crowning, it's supposed to be what's in Ellen's mind, Ellen's thoughts and feelings. I tried to explain that, and she shook her head. "I don't read the cards that way. I don't pay attention to positions. That's not what's important." "Now, see? I want you to look at something." She picked up both cards to show us. "It's the same guy." Sure enough, in the Gilded deck the King of Swords and the figure in the 5 of Cups look very similar. To Ellen she said, "You're husband's hurt about something, you've hurt his feelings." "I wouldn't have read it that way," I said stiffly. But I might as well have not spoken; she was on a roll. She tapped on Card 6, Approaching Influences, the Queen of Wands reversed. "Now this woman," she said, "this woman is evil." It was all I could do not to roll my eyes. I would have read the Queen as an aspect of Ellen; I would have told her that she had some Queen of Wands energy headed her way, and that she should be careful not to be too bossy, impatient or quick to anger with her kids and husband. But the woman told Ellen, "This is a friend, someone close to you, but she's evil. She's out to get your husband." "Wait a minute..." I tried to interject. But Ellen was hanging on her every word. She had Ellen pull another card from the deck--the Queen of Swords. The woman held the two cards side by side and compared their imagery: one fiery, one cool. One smoldering with passion, one sharp with intelligence. "Now, I ask you," she said, "which one is going to win? Who's the one with the sword?" Ellen pointed to the Queen of Swords. "That's right, hon. You don't have a thing to worry about. She's not going to get him." We never even got to the rest of the spread, because by now a little crowd had gathered. The woman offered to read people by having each person draw just one card. Then she would look at the cards and use the tiniest details to tell them about themselves. And damn it, she was right, every time. I didn't want to draw one. I was annoyed as hell and really just wanted her to leave so I could go back to being the resident tarot reader. But they talked me into it. Guess what I drew? You guessed it, the Queen of Wands. That evil, husband stealing bitch Ellen had been warned about just 20 minutes before. We were all stunned into silence, then shocked laughter. I looked at my friend of ten years. "Ellen, I swear...." "No, no, no," the woman said. "This is different, we're not doing her spread anymore. This is you." She looked at the card intently and said, "You're a witch." Okay, not such a stretch to guess that a tarot reader might be into spellwork, but the truth is I've been studying the craft for several months now. She pointed to a flaming golden orb atop a pillar. "This is your tarot reading. You're flaming with the passion of learning right now, and the fact that it's on this pillar means that it's extremely important to you. It's very important to you that you be a good reader, and you're getting there, you're getting there." Okay, wow. She had hit the nail right on the head there. Then she tried to guess my astrological sign, which she got wrong. Finally! When I told her I'm a Gemini, she peered at the card some more and said, "Oh yeah, I should have seen that." She showed me how half the card is in light, and half in shadow, and how she should have seen that as a clue to my dual nature. She did several more people, all of whom walked away amazed. One of my male coworkers pulled a Queen. She started to read it and then said, "I'm sorry, but I have to ask--you're not by any chance gay, are you?" Our jaws dropped. Yes, he is and not obviously so. She explained that men almost never draw Queens unless they're gay or bi. I was annoyed and jealous and in awe of her all at the same time. "How long have you been reading the cards to be able to do it so intuitively?" I asked. "I don't do it intuitively. I used to read them your way, by the books, but I was taught a better way. I read the pictures. The pictures tell you everything you need to know." She was zeroing in on the tiniest details--subtleties of light, positions, colors, expressions on faces, animals. I realized something. I have 8 different decks, read regularly with all of them, and read them all pretty much the same way--that is, by some variation of the widely accepted meanings, taking into consideration the card's position and the question. I pretty much read the Queen of Wands the same way no matter what deck I'm using. I rarely read the cards differently based on subtle differences in the symbolism. I usually don't even notice it. But, according to this woman, the symbolism is everything! She doesn't use positional meanings at all. And she was a lot more accurate and specific than the wishy-washy readings I usually give. She claims not to be psychic. She says she just uses a better method. But having said all that, I sincerely doubt that some evil woman is out to get Ellen's husband. I think there's a place for structure and positions and traditional meanings, but clearly I've been overlooking something very important. And now finally, the question: how much importance do you place on the content of the actual pictures as opposed to the traditional meanings for the cards? Any thoughts on any of this will be very much appreciated. Blessings, Denise

lunalafey	12 May 2005
elysgrl wrote: And now finally, the question: how much importance do you place on the content of the actual pictures as opposed to the traditional meanings for the cards? I have many decks that I use regularly, and all are different in thier own little ways- some are more structured like the well known taraditional tarot- others mix things up a little- I keep to the basics of elements and suits, remind myself of the cards traditional meaning as well as anything the decks creator might have added. But as the saying goes- a picture is worth a thousand words.... I get alot from just the images that are before me. I would not say that I work with the images to the level this woman did, but I do rely on them for part of thier meaning. for example- I pulled the Fey 6 of Chalices. Traditionally this card represents something of the past, a memory and such. The image 'told' me of a soul finding it's 'place' to be born. Putting the two together- the card spoke of a pregnancy in the distant past.

Ace	12 May 2005
Denise: First, let me commend you on handling a difficult situation with grace under pressure. You did fine, I would have covered the cards with my arms and glared at the intruder and said, "May I finish MY reading? then you can try your own interp." Much more rude! Anyway, in answer the question. I took a tarot class when I started reading and then worked with a mentor and it took a year or more for her to get me PAST what the card was SUPPOSED to mean according to the teacher and LWB, even though the teacher had also pounded it into us that we should work on our OWN version of what we thought the cards meant. Nowadays, the traditional meaning is useful if I am tired or unable to get a read on someone, but I JUST use the pictures to figure out what the card is saying. Not even: queens for men mean they are gay. (A codified meaning that person had come up with) Sometimes, You can tell when all you can see is what the card traditionally means and when you are READING the universe: I once was reading at a party. 4 ladies were sitting together watching each other getting read and having a great time. A 5th came up and they insisted she sit down and get read. She was a bit uncomfortable but she didn't want to be rude so she did. I finished the 4 and started on her. Suddenly the cards meant nothing special at all, first they did then they didn't. I realized the lady didn't want the others to hear her business and had closed down. I shooed the first 4 away, turned back to the other lady and she relaxed and we did a fine reading. My opinion: don't go by the traditional meaning at all unless you aren't getting anything else. LOOK at the card, see what it suggests to you. It might not be anything like you expected but it will be true. Maybe truer than the traditional meaning was! Which why one question I ask when someone asks about an interp of a card, is "which deck are you using?" That can make a difference. As you work more with the pictures you will see difference between decks. Ace

lark	12 May 2005
I am psychic and proud to say that. I read the pictures first and speak out any "flashes" they bring up. If a card just lays there and doesn't offer anything up that is a signal that I am supposed to talk about the traditional meaning or what it has come to mean to me. The deck can make a difference. Usually I just "feel" if the deck choice is right. Or I have noticed that my clients often intuitivly know which deck is the right fit for them. I really enjoyed your story elysgrl. That woman was a good reader because she focused on the client. And she also understood human nature and human ego. People love to talk about themselves and hear interesting, nitty gritty, tidbits about there lives. It's fun and exciting. So she gave them that part of themselves in the reading. I would like to congratulate you on turning this experience around! Instead of seeing it as a negative you have decided to see what you can learn from it. Bravo! That is the first desire of anyone who will become a very good reader. To learn from every reading and to learn what other readers have to offer.

tarotbrat	12 May 2005
I will be honest, that in the past, I probably would have rudely interrupted and told the woman to wait, but after being here on the forum and reading what others have to say. I have grown more patient. I am now open to accepting what others have to say. I believe that sometimes they are there for a reason. But in the beginning, when I chose to start to learn, I took only the traditional meanings, it took years before I started to look at the pictures and then the surrounding cards and realized the importance of it all. I still have much to learn, the numbers, words, shapes, signs and other such details. Thank you for posting what the customer was pointing out, I will learn from that as well.

Fudugazi	12 May 2005
hehe, I'd have been as mad as hell! You kept your cool, very impressive! Stealing your thunder.... But she taught you something good (apart from the silk nonsense). Symbolism is everything. We can struggle for years until we get that. We have to let it talk to us direct, unmediated. It's not easy! But that's when we can start hearing the unconscious and the whole invisible world - as lark said.

firemaiden	12 May 2005
I loved your story, elysgirl. I think the method she describes sounds very much like what I like to do. Some things I didn't like from her though, first of all, were her way of "telling" the reading - in such a definite way, (I would prefer to say "the cards suggest"; her way of stating such harsh judgements "she's evil" for the other woman; and obviously, her rude way of taking over your reading and commanding attention. Furthermore, it didn't mean your reading was wrong, and hers was right. You would have read completely differently, but it could have been just as accurate - you might have raised different details altogether and seen things she'd missed.

Imagemaker	12 May 2005
Fascinating encounter! Your awareness of all the facets (your ego, her accuracy, competing methods, watching the crowd's reaction, learning from her details) and letting them flow together was a rare experience that has led you to a whole new place with tarot. Perhaps you were the student, and since you were ready, the teacher appeared? I go more and more with the pictures, and like lark, if they don't speak clearly or cause a flash, then I use conventional meanings as a bridge to the next card. But then I DO like positions as a structure unless I'm just having a conversation with the cards about my own question. I hope that woman comes in again and you pass along the next tidbit of wisdom :) There's nothing like watching an expert in action!

Free Flight	13 May 2005
that is an interesting story and kudos to you for keeping your cool I would have been intimidated by her.. maybe she popped in to your life to show you another path to deepen your readings...maybe it was just coincidence I started off by learning the traditional meanings and now I read the card itself...when this fails I fall back on the traditional meanings..usually I have a few for each card and the most apt one just pops in my head.. Do let us know if the Queen of Wands does come into your friends life, I would be very interested...

Mesara	13 May 2005
What an odd encounter... I can understand you annoyance- not only was she showing off but she just grabbed your deck and started using it like her own? Ooohh... NOT COOL. However, she did show you a thing or two didn't she? (Don't you HATE that?) :) But like Firemaiden said, your reading wasn't wrong. Everyone reads and sees different things in the cards. She simply showed you another way.. I use a little of everything when I read- in more or less amounts depending on the reading. I have a lot of reliance on traditional meanings, but I also pay attention to the pictures, the positions, etc. Sometimes I give the pictures and/or positions more credence than the traditional meanings if it just *feels* right. It varies with each reading. . She sounds like a very assertive, strong-willed person.. Could it be that she has such a strong, magnetic personality that anything she says manages to awe and impress? Never under- estimate the power of charisma when it comes to human interactions. And her "Queens always equal gay" declaration really makes me wary. No card always means the same thing. Tarot would be so boring if it did, and it would be less of an artform and more like a dictionary... She read your co-worker right, but often people pick up on many other signs.. Or it could have just been a good guess.. Or her intuition was really working for her.. Who knows? That is the biggest mistake one could make I think- adhering to such a rigid system of interpretation.

Violinagin	13 May 2005
Excellent story! As an artist, I'm gonna have to try reading the immages more. I might wanna get a new deck though, I used to be connected with the images of one, but not so much anymore. And the other... never did like the images. I can't wait to try reading the details. Something in me just resonates to that.

elysgrl	13 May 2005
Thank you so much, all of you, for your input. You all reinforced what I learned last night. I do feel like I have learned something very important that I may have otherwise missed, and I think her presence there was one of those synchronicities we're blessed with every now and then. I recently did a spread to try and gauge when I might be ready to read professionally, and the cards suggested that I need to find some Temperence first. Perhaps that means mixing this new approach with what I've already been doing in order to grow as a reader. (I also got The World reversed--twice, as the advice card in two separate spreads--which said to me, "Hold on there, girl! You'll have what you want eventually, but all in good time. Don't rush it.") Thank you again, Denise

SunChariot	15 May 2005
Thanks for sharing. That was a great story, really well written and fun to read:-) As for me, I have 12 decks now, and I read most of them by analysing the imagery of each card. That means that yes, each card gives a very different asnwer (and has a very different meaning) in each of my decks. I agree the image is everything (or almost) and yes even the minutest detail can contain a world of meaning. And moreover the meanings of any specific card change greatly according to the position (when I use a spread) the question and many other things. The same symbol in the same card can mean a very different thing according the the question. You have to feel what it means on a given day in a given reading. The colour green in an image can relate to money in a reading about work or nature and the environment in another reading. I started to learn the traditional card readings when I started Tarot (a year ago today!) but it bored me and for me I found my method worked better. I really have been very happy with all the readings I have done. Tarot to me is a tool to access the wisdom in my unconscious which thinks only in images, not words. You just have to look at a symbol, and feel what it means at that moment, and that answer is from your unconscious, and voila wisdom. LOL The only one I read differently is my Faeries' Oracle, which I am still working on learning how to approach it. But it is a very unique deck, one that teaches you to communicate with faeries.:) Bar

Ace	15 May 2005
elysgrl wrote: I recently did a spread to try and gauge when I might be ready to read professionally, and the cards suggested that I need to find some Temperence first. Perhaps that means mixing this new approach with what I've already been doing in order to grow as a reader. (I also got The World reversed--twice, as the advice card in two separate spreads--which said to me, "Hold on there, girl! You'll have what you want eventually, but all in good time. Don't rush it.") Good interp! I think that is very worthwhile advice! Ace

full deck	16 May 2005
That woman sounds interesting. Even though you do not read like her, you could probably learn some interesting things just by hanging out. I don't think it would hurt, unless your dead-set against such.

Phoenix Rising	16 May 2005
What a cool story, I really enjoyed reading it...well written too i must say. she sounds like a real character, did she have missing teeth? I suppose she is a bit rude, interferring like that, but that's just her personality, and she's obviously passionate about tarot too. She sounded very experienced anyhow, and i probably wouldn't of minded her butting in on my reading, we can learn from each other, even our kids can teach us a thing or two. You should write a book too I reckon.

Thirteen	16 May 2005
Imagemaker wrote: Perhaps you were the student, and since you were ready, the teacher appeared? A true teacher lets the student find the answers for themselves--and shine at them...she doesn't step in and take the learning away from the student in order to show off her own expertise, as this woman did. It was not only rude, it was VERY unprofessional. No reader should venture to touch another's cards, or enter into another's readings without politely asking permission. However accurate her ability, this certainly undermines this woman with me--which is not to say she wasn't there to teach something.... I just don't think she'd be the best Tarot Teacher as, ironically, she's into absolutes. "I don't ever use positions!" is as much an absolute as "I always use positions!"...which brings us to Temperance. The merging of the two. And I'll add my Kudos to elysgirl for handing it so well. Perhaps it was more a lesson in "temperance"--not losing your cool and re-adjusting your way of seeing not just the cards, but people, that was the lesson here. Certainly you had the thesis (you), Antithesis (her) and created Synthesis from it. This woman's way of looking at the cards allowed you to see an antithesis to your own method--and perhaps, from that, create one (synthesis) that surpasses both yours and hers. You did far better than I would have in similar circumstances--and even if this woman got the attention from the crowd, I assure you that we pros on this forum hold you in much higher esteem for how you handled her and her intrusion than we do her. YOU were the professional in this instance.

Imagemaker	16 May 2005
Quote: Certainly you had the thesis (you), Antithesis (her) and created Synthesis from it. Wonderful phrasing--in my view, anything can teach us if we're aware of taking a lesson from it. So no matter the intruder's manner or absolutes, she has turned out to be a teacher, hasn't she? Sometimes the teachers we despise are the ones we learn the most from . . .

The A tale of two readers thread was originally posted on 12 May 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.