Astrological Signs for Court Cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

cormac	04 May 2005
I was reading in Thirteen's explainations of the cards on this site and in the general descriptions for the Court Cards, it is cited that wach has an Atrological symbol attached to it -- I can't find what these are -- any suggestions? thanks :)

WolfyJames	04 May 2005
All Knights are fixed signs, all Queens are cardinals signs and all Kings are mutable signs. Fixed signs: Knight of Cups: Scorpio Knight of Wands: Leo Knight of Pentacles: Taurus Knight of Swords: Aquarius Cardinal signs: Queen of Cups: Cancer Queen of Wands: Aries Queen of Pentacles: Capricorn Queen of Swords: Libra Mutable signs: Kings of Cups: Pisces Kings of Wands: Sagitarius King of Pentacles: Virgo Kings of Swords: Gemini

Fudugazi	04 May 2005
Hi Wolfy James - I am familiar with very different court-astrological signs attributions (which I don't often use anymore, btw!) - how did you come by yours? What I had was mutable= queens; fixed=kings; cardinal=knights.

cormac	04 May 2005
ty wolfie :)

wandking	04 May 2005
from a consensus of sources I came to associate queens w/ cardinal, kings w/ fixed and knights w/ mutable... pages draw energy from the four basic elements.

Thirteen	04 May 2005
wandking wrote: from a consensus of sources I came to associate queens w/ cardinal, kings w/ fixed and knights w/ mutable... pages draw energy from the four basic elements. See, now I always associate kings w/cardinal (the spark or sperm: Cancer, Aries, Libra, Cap.), queens with fixed (the womb of growth: Scorpio, Leo, Aquarius, Taurus) and Knights w/mutable--the future possibility (Pisces, Sag. Gemini, Virgo). Cormac: The assignment of astrological signs for the court cards goes two ways. Either you decide on your own what it's going to be--as WolfyJames, WandKing and I have. It's whatever makes sense to you/feels right to you. WolfyJames, Wandking and I have given you three choices. You decide if you want fixed signs to be Kings, Queens or Knights...etc. Cardinal signs motivate, start the process. Fixed signs make it real, give it stablity. Mutable signs take it elsewhere--allow it to change. So using these to decide which signs are kings, queens, knights makes sense. OR You rely on the deck you're using. Deck creators often have their own opinion on which court card gets which astrological sign; and what they come up with might or might not make any sense to you (Wandking, WolfyJames and I at least agree that all fixed signs should be all kings or queens or Knights--some decks mix them up--a fixed sign for a knight, one for a king, another for a queen! Very confusing). Usually such decks will give you clues as to the astrological sign of the court card. One deck I have has the Double Fish sign on the Queen of Cups' throne, so that deck thinks she's Pisces. Another deck I have has a crab crawling out of the ocean towards, her. That deck says she's Cancer. And yet another deck has a nice little scorpion symbol for our Queen of cups. Usually, I keep to my assignments unless the deck has very blatent symbols--the Queen of Wands with a Ram's horn crown, for example--that I just can't ignore. Then I let the deck tell me who's who.

rainwolf	04 May 2005
I have the same attributes as wolfie--and i think the courts live up to the three types and here is how i came up with it: Kings are mature and thus are more able to live with change and have experience with it. Being mutable is about the final changes and the end product, which is what the king is; mature from experience and is into the ending bit. Queens are the motherly type, and have more of a foundation. Their comfort comes from staying in one place, and therefore being a foundation for others as well. By being fixed, this implies staying in one place and providing security. Knights are the beginnings of things, and have the energy to start new projects. By being cardinal, this is the energy to start the endeavors, and supply the beginnings which are transformed into fixed and then mutable in which the king "finishes" the project. So if you didnt get any of that (many people say that things i tell them they dont understand-prolly my fault), then knights=cardinal=beginning; queens=fixed=middle/foundation; and kings=mutable=endings. In the recent past, ive had conflicting views but i chose this because it made more sense in a logical way that knights are only mutable in a sense that they can handle change, but they dont have the maturity or age required to be skilled at finishing projects. So basically there are several ways, just find the way that works for you as with anything in tarot.

WolfyJames	04 May 2005
As for my system, it's not my system but Hazel's system in her book I recently won here Tarot Decoded. Let's just say I haven't really thought about it personaly, but I had the system in mind when I wrote my post.

Fulgour	05 May 2005
Laying out the Minors, by House with decanate associations, reveals: --------------------- Aries: Queen of Wands and 2 3 4 of Wands Taurus: King of Pentacles and 5 6 7 of Pentacles Gemini: Knight of Swords and 8 9 10 of Swords * Cancer: Queen of Cups and 2 3 4 of Cups Leo: King of Wands and 5 6 7 of Wands Virgo: Knight of Pentacles and 8 9 10 of Pentacles * Libra: Queen of Swords and 2 3 4 of Swords Scorpio: King of Cups and 5 6 7 of Cups Sagittarius: Knight of Wands and 8 9 10 of Wands * Capricorn: Queen of Pentacles and 2 3 4 of Pentacles Aquarius: King of Swords and 5 6 7 of Swords Pisces: Knight of Cups and 8 9 10 of Cups --------------------- Here is a very rare, valuable, and altogether great link ~ just try finding something like this by chance! http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/im/decans.gif .

Fulgour	05 May 2005
wandking wrote: ... pages draw energy from the four basic elements. But then wouldn't that make them the same as Aces?

Fulgour	05 May 2005
Tarot seems always to present just enough of a system to take you so far. I think this is because it is genuinely based on very real things, rather than abstractions or concepts. We are led up to a point and then must move beyond, to expand our view to encompass the greater whole. The Pages of the Tarot Autumn's Waning Moon, The Page of Swords, loosening, giving, ebbing. Winter's New Moon, The Page of Pentacles, original, fresh and unbounded. Spring's Waxing Moon, The Page of Wands, awakening, gathering, becoming. Summer's Full Moon, The Page of Cups, generous, strong, and fulfilled.

wandking	05 May 2005
exactly fulgor, unlike many at this site i view pages as "the bringers of the seeds of change" like Connolly says in her second book. Aces also represent change brought on by a new beginning. She doesn't say that a page, which although un-numbered is the 11th card in each suit and represents an irreducible number in numerology, making them dynamic. FYI, Ettiella was the first to ascribe astrological/elemental power sources to Tarot but Crowley has a greater influence on modern astrological attributes. Like many modern sources Crowley writes: 2 of wands=Mars in Aries, 3 of wands=Sun in Aries, 4 of wands=Venus in Aries, 5 of wands=Saturn in Leo, 6 of wands=Jupiter in Leo, 7 of wands=Mars in Leo, 8 of wands=Mercury in Sagittarius, 9 of wands=Moon in Sagittarius, 10 of wands=Saturn in Sagittarius. When you study each influence in relation to card meanings they generally make sense, like on the 2 of cups, where we have the planet of love and beauty, Venus, in sensitive Cancer. By the time we reach that tricky 7 of cups Venus is in Scorpio. One astrology book catagorically states Venus becomes slu#ish in Scorpio but I tone it down and write: "This seven shares energy with Venus in Scorpio, where a planet named for the Goddess of Love becomes lusty and promiscuous." I think they both sound sexist but the ancient astrologers must have all been male sexists, according to my humble research into astrological duplicity. LOL

wandking	05 May 2005
I nature, females generally initiate sexual activity (many species are triggered by springtime or other natural events) and cardinal signs represent initiators. As far as kings are concerned, males of any species must remain constantly ready (fixed) for these reproductive opportunities. In mammals, females, go through a series of changes during not only pregnancy but also during each reproductive cycle. In many Arachnids, if a male gets anywhere near the much larger female before she's ready he becomes a tasty snack, not an initiator! LOL

WolfyJames	05 May 2005
Fulgour wrote: But then wouldn't that make them the same as Aces? Yes, the Pages are the same as the Aces.

Fulgour	05 May 2005
WolfyJames wrote: Yes, the Pages are the same as the Aces. But that would mean there are 8 Aces.

wandking	05 May 2005
nope, fulgore, pages are MUCH more... aces, as you know signal beginnings, as I'm sure you know; however Pages plant a seed of change and do not necessarily represent beginnings, at the time the seed is planted. The change a page suggests may be seen or unseen by the seeker. I hope this doesn't lead you to the conclussion that pages replace 10's, which signal transition, like the mother of all tens, the Wheel. Pages are messengers and messages bring news, which will affect life. For example, here's a Page, the way I read one: THE PAGE OF CUPS As first emissary of the Cups Court, the Page of Cups offers a chalice full of intuition with all the emotion of his realm. Showing that this page is in touch with the element of Water, a fish rises from the chalice to gain his attention. From this card, sensitive and spiritual qualities flow freely. This page stands before an element from which the card draws power. The Page of Cups shares fluid energies of Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. Waters of emotion and intuition, which flow throughout his suit, run deeper in this page than in previous cards. Appearance of the Page of Cups usually signals messages of a romantic nature. Carefully consider any invitation that this card predicts before declining, because it signals a positive change. Like all pages, The Page of Cups represents children in your world. In a reading, this card will indicate an event, a person in your life or traits surfacing in the personality. On the tunic of this page, pink and white water lilies imply fertility and romance. As an event, this page generally refers to children, which is likely the reason he wears pink and baby blue. Although, like other pages, he symbolizes youngsters in our life; his association to them is stronger. The Page of Cups might predict pregnancies and the birth of children, especially if the Ace of Wands, the Page of Wands and The Empress are nearby. He can also be a sign of a new romantic relationship - a friendship - a new level of happiness in an existing relationship - or any event relating to emotional beginnings. Potential for the start of new or deeper romantic love is especially strong with this page because his cup holds a fish symbolizing Pisces, an astrology sign which focuses on romantic love. Whatever kind of relationship this card signals, realize that these beginnings can appear unexpectedly or come through personal initiative. When this page emerges in the same reading with the Knight of Cups, which shares energy with Pisces, keep in mind the potential for new love. Pisces generally represents a person who is not happy unless they have true love in their lives. The Page of Cups shows young people with strong intuition, which provides an ability to dream and create life exactly as they please. People that this card represents are real romantics that exhibit compassionate, gentle natures. Generally artistic, these individuals cherish tranquility and appear somewhat out of step with the modern world. Demonstrating an inability to cope with conflict anyone that the Page of Cups indicates will seem dreamy and detached much of the time. Meditative and composed, the Page of Cups embodies a studious temperament. In the picture, this page wears symbolic pink, suggesting a distinctly feminine essence, combined with light blue of the life-giving, regenerative Nile River in Egyptian symbolism. He stands on firm ground but a river meandering to contentment that flows through the Cups Suit empties into a vast body of water behind him. The Page of Cups indicates ideas with a solid basis that might appear implausible. People that this card identifies can seem moody or impractical but like the Page of Cups; they will be spiritual, emotional and ready to serve. Shakespeare adopts a Page of Cups slant in writing, “Night by night… lovers dream of love.” Appearance of this card in a spread usually indicates that a dormant seed of change on the emotional level in life will have dynamic impact on relationships. The Page of Cups often represents an element of the psyche surfacing because you lost touch with intuition. In this technical existence, humanity becomes increasingly detached from the innate imaginative spark that makes life worth living. Unlike other pages, the Page of Cups can show a message coming through dreams. Appearance of this page tells you to listen to intuition and believe in dreams. If a dream vanishes, cynicism replaces your idealized vision, which although unattainable, offers hope. At dark moments, dreams provide a star of anticipation to illuminate existence. Eleanor Roosevelt best taught the lessons of this page when she said. “The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."

Thirteen	06 May 2005
I'm not talking mammals, I'm talking myth. Mythically, the cycle of life is sperm as the initiator, the creative seed. It falls from the sky onto the FIXED earth and creates growth. Mythically, the male is also the one that changes, goes throught the cycle of life. The green man, who starts as seed and grows till reaped at harvest time. The prince born, grows to manhood, kills the king, takes the queen, and thus engenders the next generation. He is the initiator, he is also the mutable. But he is not FIXED. That is the Queen. Mythically speaking, the eternal mother who is also lover. wandking wrote: females, go through a series of changes during not only pregnancy but also during each reproductive cycle. Ah, spoken like a man. The males are fixed, huh? Well in many mammals, the males go from female to female--they fight, they leave, they kill the babies, they are unreliable. In many species, it's the females who are the ones who hunt and provide the food, care for the family, stick with each other. Their nature is astonishingly "fixed" as compared to the mutable males. Of course, there are so many mammals with so many different habits that assigning fixed/mutable to them by saying "many mammals" is frankly ridiculous. If you're going to use anything, use people. That's what's on most cards. No other mammal. And once again, primates tend to have mutable males (female to female) and fixed females (loyal to their group if not their man). There's story from pioneering times--I don't necessarily subscribe to it, but it does get the sense of Kings Cardinal, Queens fixed: When the wagon stopped for the night at the base of the hill, the first thing the husband did was get out and head up that hill, adventurously seeking to find out what was at the top and beyond. The wife, however, remained with the wagon to care for the children, make a fire, make the evening meal, believing that it was more important to have a good, fixed campsite.

wandking	06 May 2005
There may be some commonality in mythology, as Jung said, but specifics vary widely and I'm not familiar with the myth you cited. In ALL mammals females initiate sex, however, it can be subtle and an untrained observer might miss it. Most of them go into heat. This isn't the basis for my choices of male as fixed, female as cardinal, it's simply an observation of nature that supports my findings. Admittedly I found the strongest consensus of sources that agree on astrological sources for the cards 1-10. They were exactly the same as Crowley. The next strongest consensus was in the trumps, with energy for the World card varying more than the other Majors. I found the least consensus of mostly live unpublished Tarot readers and online sources that agreed on astrological energies for the court cards. Finding agreement on specific astrological energies and Tarot card meanings has been quite a challenge over the years. In my early studies I subscribed to western stereotypes of male as the pioneering cardinal and female as the homebody but after research I realized it was slightly sexist and all wrong.

wandking	06 May 2005
The next entries provide some evidence of why I gained less consensus with the court cards. Crowley did not offer specific astrological designations for court cards but instead combined signs. Still he mentions a CARDINAL sign on each queen. Crowley writes: QUEEN OF WANDS rules in the Zodiac from the 21st degree of Pisces to the 20th degree of Aries. QUEEN OF CUPS rules from the 21st degree of Gemini to the 20th degree of Cancer QUEEN OF SWORDS rules from the 21St degree of Virgo to the 20th degree of Libra. QUEEN OF DISKS rules from the 21st degree of Sagittarius to the 20th degree of Capricornus. BTW, that "myth" you mentioned sounds like something I've read by Crowley... Where did you find that myth?

cormac	09 May 2005
thank you all for all of your views and knowledge -- i'm still trying to sort it out but i appreciate it :D :) thanks again

Thirteen	09 May 2005
wandking wrote: BTW, that "myth" you mentioned sounds like something I've read by Crowley... Where did you find that myth? I'm sure you have read it in Crowley as it has to do with Myth and Crowley was an expert in many myths from Egypt to Britain. Western pagan mythos follows two lines: the vegatation and the animal--it depends on whether the tribe is agricultural or hunter/gatherers. With vegetation you go back to ancient Greece--God as sky, goddess as Earth, often God (Zeus) as rain or seed from the sky (Zeus impregnantes a few women this way, by raining down on them). Moving toward the Celtic myth, you get your Greenman, the seed planted in mother earth that grows, matures and then dies. Cycle of life. The female is often seen as eternal, the male as mutable. The other myth is the "Herne the hunter" myth--myths of animal cycles. The male is born, he grows, challenges the other male for right to the female, kills the elder male and becomes king. Engenders a son and cycle restarts. Again, we see this also in Greek myth as well, Cronus killing his father to take control of the heavens, Zeus, Cronus' son, castrating him to take control of the heavens. Greek myth after Greek myth has young heroes killing old kings to take their place. Head to Britain and you have the same with Arthurian legends where old King Uther ends up crippled, dies, and only the son who can pull out the sword (are we moving into Freud yet?) gets to be king. In both cases, however, these males come from the goddess mother, fight and die to make love to the goddess mother. The earth-mother womb is alpha and omega, the man is born out of it, and buried back into it. The King is cardinal (engendering), and mutable (going from boy to man to retired elder). The female is not. I don't ask you to agree with my astological assignments, only to see what made me decide on them. You go with what works for you. Myth is what's behind the cards, and so myth is what motivated my decision.

The Astrological Signs for Court Cards thread was originally posted on 04 May 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.