Correspondences between the Court Cards and the Trumps

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 29 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

memorexe	29 May 2005
Hi all, Several years ago I came across a bit of esoteric information about the court cards--apparently they all correspond with certain trumps--for example the Queen of Cups is the Empress, the High Priestess is the arcane version of the Queen of Wands... et cetera Now, for the life of me, I can't locate this resource--and its bugged me for years. I've intuited that that the Queen of Pentacles lines up with Justice, and that the Queen of Swords is Strength--but as for the males in the suits, I'm a bit stumped. It's occured to me that The King of Cups is the Hierophant... And then there are the pages... Anyway, this is my question, does anyone out there know about these correspondences--and where I can find out more? thanks, memorexe

light2000	29 May 2005
hi memorexe is very interesting what you post for me. we all have a different point of view and is this that turns this forum so exciting. i dont see the things like you do. for example for me all the 2 minors arcans are related whith the lovers. the card lovers talk about a very big love but when we talking about other things this card means contradition and talks about one decison. and the maximum arcans have 4 worlds: physical, spiritual, love and material. when the lovers come out is telling about a major event at your life but when a 2 card appears is talking about a minor event at your life. The 2 of cups talks about love and relashionships so is equal of the meaning of the lover card at this matter. the 2 of swords talks about contradition and a decision that you must make so is equal a the lover card at the psysical world. i think this example explains what i was trying to say. so the car is related to the knighs, the magician to the pages, the empresse to the queens, the emperor to the kings and so on. but there are cards that i do another division. the aces are related to the world and so on i know that i´m not answer your question but.. i know a book that talks about this but is a brasilian book. i dont know if was made a tranlation to english but the name of the book is mystic tarot by Celina Fioravanti i guess that you dont find but is the only book i know that talks about this.

memorexe	30 May 2005
Hi light2000, That's interesting--I always thought of the pages as related to the Strentgh Card--perhaps because I think of them as the "inner child" and thus the animal parts of ourselves. Also, I've come to think of the two's as related to Judgement and the High Priestess-- all about rewiring and readjustment. Do you find that the differences are emphasized in different decks? I've never heard of Cecilia Fioravanti--but I'll look her up and see if she's translated in English--or even French (which I can manage.) Thanks for the tip-- memorexe

Fulgour	30 May 2005
While the corresponding attributions are limited, being Minors and Majors, here are the matches: QUEEN Wands V Hierophant Cups VIII Justice Swords XII Hanged Man Pentacles XVI Tower KING Wands IX Hermit Cups XIV Temperance Swords XVIII The Moon Pentacles VI Lovers KNIGHT Wands XV Devil Cups XIX The Sun Swords VII Chariot Pentacles X Wheel of Fortune * Based on progressive distance from the Earth: II High Priestess MOON III Empress VENUS IV Emperor MARS XI Strength MERCURY XVII The Star SUN XX Judgement JUPITER [ ] The Fool SATURN

Nina*	30 May 2005
Fulgour wrote: QUEEN Wands V Hierophant Cups VIII Justice Swords XII Hanged Man Pentacles XVI Tower KING Wands IX Hermit Cups XIV Temperance Swords XVIII The Moon Pentacles VI Lovers KNIGHT Wands XV Devil Cups XIX The Sun Swords VII Chariot Pentacles X Wheel of Fortune Why? What is the explanation that for instance the king of wands correspond to the Hermit? Is it about astrology too? xxx Nina

memorexe	30 May 2005
I have the same question for Fulgour: how do these cards correspond? To my thinking, the Hermit would represent Virgo and thus the Knight of Pentacles. Could you please elaborate? thank you, memorexe

Fulgour	30 May 2005
From the artwork on Le Tarot de Marseille it is clear that the Majors correspond to the letters of the old Phoenician alphabet, which comes to us in Hebrew. Look at the cards, and do the very simple logic: Card 1 is letter One, and so on through all 22. The correspondences are over 5000 years old.

VisionQuest	30 May 2005
I'm still not understanding the correspondences :( However on another note... In the Gay Tarot deck, The theme of say... The Magician, is followed in the Aces... with the magician and ace both being 1. The theme of the emperor card is also the theme of the 4 cards... etc. This is explained much better in other threads, but hopefully you get the idea :)

mythos	30 May 2005
I'm confused!!!!!!! mythos

Fulgour	30 May 2005
There are 12 months, each with a zodiac sign. In the ancient alphabet, the one we use still, the Phoenicians matched up letters to months. Letters for months from 22 letter alphabet: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 18, 19 Going by the letters in order it's as easy as pie. The Golden Dawn got them ALL WRONG. Period.

mythos	31 May 2005
I'm probably being as thick as a brick here. I get it about the Phonecian alphabet ... which I assume had 22 letter. I have no problem with the idea of the GD getting things wrong. What I don't get is how you get those specific numbers to relate to the twelve zodiac signs/months. Is there some document ... book whatever that I can read so that I can make sense of how these attributions were made Fulgor? You've got me fascinated, and I want to follow it up. thanks mythos

Fulgour	31 May 2005
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Thread - Very Unlike Kabbalah http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=28306 I think it is the very simplicity of the basic attributes that makes it so hard to understand ~ it's too easy! Nothing occult or mystical, no kabbalah or gematria, just a straightforward set of correspondences from as far back as far back goes in writing, the alphabet.

mythos	01 Jun 2005
Thanks Fulgor ... it'll take a bit of reading and time to get my head around this ... particularly given my dearth of astrological knowledge. Looks so fascinating, and I have vague recollections about reading some stuff about the Phonecian alphbet somewhere a year or so ago .... as always ... it's the 'where' that is the problem. The link that you provided looks like it will head me in the right direction for following this thought path. And ... I do like to follow thought paths LOL mythos

Inana	01 Jun 2005
It’s interesting to see this thread about correspondences between Courts and the Majors. I’m not sure about the ones you have posted, however, since I’ve find hard to relate the meanings of those cards. Will take a look to that link to see if i understand it better. Weeks ago, I was playing around with the RWS and doing a two card reading. I picked up Queen of Wands and Strength. And they seemed very similar in meaning and colour frame. So I put all the queens on the table looking for other pairs between them and the Major Arcana. I also tried to relate Kings and Majors, but It was more difficult. This is what I came with: Queen of Wands & Strength – Yellow colours, flowers, felines. Animal magnetism, courage, energy, dominion, desire. Queen of Swords & High Priestess – Blues, whites. Intelligent, cultivated, experienced, distant. Queen of Pentacle & Empress – Vegetation, red, yellow. Comfort, mature, exuberance, nurturing. Queen of Cups & the Moon – Blue, water. Dreamy, moody, intuitive, sensitive, creative. Have you looked at the face of the moon in this deck? I’ts the same than the queen one… Does anyone know if there was an special reason for this? King of Swords & Justice – Stones, sword, frontal gaze, red, blue. Truth, decisions, equality, objectivity. King of Cups & Hierophant – Soft, fatty, red, grey. Commitment, persuasive, helpers, spiritual. King of Pentacles & the Emperor – Red, gold sceptre, armour under robes. Firm, warm, stability, preservation. King of Wands & The Sun/ Magician – I don’t see this one so clear. This are just some ideas of correlations I found that work for me. Still need to look for the Knights and pages...

Fulgour	01 Jun 2005
If you let it, it can go on and on like this... The best thing may be to keep your focus. Tarot is not half as hard as it's made to be. Remember: 12 Signs, 7 Planets, 3 "Elements" * Understanding Jewish Mysticism Christy Mulshine, Sara Kyman, Megan Buck and Krystle Tree Mount Holyoke College http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~cemulshi/understand.html Astronomy of Babylon by Dr. Imad Ahmad http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/regulus_antares/astronomy_of_babylon.htm The Invention of the Alphabet by Dennis J. Stallings http://www.geocities.com/ctesibos/alphabet/index.html Levanah: Ba'alat Saharah & Ba'al Sin http://ggms.com/asherah/shrh.htm Dance of the Seven Veils http://ggms.com/asherah/veils.htm

rachelcat	01 Jun 2005
Here are the Golden Dawn correspondences by astrological sign. These are Knight/Kings. Princesses represent whole seasons, so I guess we can get creative with their correspondences with majors! Aries Emperor Queen of Wands Taurus Hierophant Prince of Coins Gemini Lovers Knight of Swords Cancer Chariot Queen of Cups Leo Strength Prince of Wands Virgo Hermit Knight of Coins Libra Justice Queen of Swords Scorpio Death Prince of Cups Sagittarius Temperance Knight of Wands Capricorn Devil Queen of Coins Aquarius Star Prince of Swords Pisces Moon Knight of Cups Summer, Princess of Wands Autumn, Princess of Cups Winter, Princess of Swords Spring, Princess of Coins

Moongold	01 Jun 2005
This link may be of interest. http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article.php?id=387

Nina*	01 Jun 2005
Thank you Moongold What a great link :) xxx Nina

Moongold	01 Jun 2005
This is a purely spontaneous and perhaps tangential response to this thread but I thought immediately of my recent impressions of the visual and intuitive correspondences I make between Fool and the Pages.. The associations I make are of youth, energy, potential, curiosity and freshness. The Page of Pentacles has been of particular interest to me lately and the golden energy about the card is particularly meaningful. Similar colours abound in the Fool image, Do others also make these intuitive associations between the various Courts and Majors?

light2000	01 Jun 2005
hi, Moongold!! I see this a litle similar like you do. For me the pages are the magician, because they talk about starts. The quenns are the empress. The Kings are the imperor. And the knights are the charriot.

Moongold	01 Jun 2005
Thanks light2000 :). That's very interesting indeed. Reading back through the thread I can see that Inana has done this as well. I wonder how strong our intuitive responses are alongside other more formal correlations such as those Fulgour describes and those mentioned in the Llwellyn thread.

Inana	02 Jun 2005
Hi! Moongold, I like much that association between the pages and the Fool!Looking at them I think they fit better than with the Magician, I will reconsider this one. And yes, my associatons were intuitive too. Light, I also use those correspondences as general way to study the courts, but I probably would move to my news ones. Fulgour, thanks for providing all those links. Will give a look at them when I find more time. I tend to get lost when stuff is connected with Kabbalah and Astrology, but I see you say Is just related to phoenician alphabet... This is a very interesting thread. I wonder how can affect in readings... If there is a court card and its associated major, their shared meanings would strengthen a lot.

light2000	02 Jun 2005
hi Moongold. i dont have the some opinion about the fool and the pages, for my is the magician, becuase is about stars, ambicions, news, the begining of one path. For example the page of cups sometimes at love he is saw like a young man that is starting to love you, and the magician is exaclty the same. The fool?? I dont think so but at the tarot what matters is the impression of the tarot reader. Inana: I saw what you had wrote and there´s one that i dont think that matchs. Queen of Swords & High Priestess – Blues, whites. Intelligent, cultivated, experienced, distant. The colors can be the same but the meaning? The queen is cold, racional, she thinks on at avenges, he wants to take adventeges for others, and she haves no pitty of the others, she is the boss, and she is very intelectual. The hight priestess is intuitive, she is waiting for her children at home, she likes to be at home, she dont want go at fights, yes she is a litle cold like the queen. But the most important is one is intuitive and the other is intelectual, so i dont see matchs here.

Fulgour	02 Jun 2005
Moongold wrote: I wonder how strong our intuitive responses are alongside other more formal correlations such as those Fulgour describes... My formal correlations are no more than those of long ago, the basic composition blocks of the very ancient teachers. Weeding the garden of occult mysticism and its hobgoblins has freed my imagination to 'soar' on the wings of intuition.

Inana	02 Jun 2005
light2000 wrote: Inana: I saw what you had wrote and there´s one that i dont think that matchs. Queen of Swords & High Priestess I see what you mean with HP being intuitive and QS intellectual. It makes some differences, not because the HP is not intellectual, but because the queen is not so intuitive. But still i think they both have a lot in common. They are cold, serious women who try to keep some distance with people. Not the type that usually is making jokes, being passionate or tender in order to show their affection. They are intelligent, intellectual, and cultivated. The HP is depicted with a book or a sacred scroll. She holds knowledge and likes to learn, teach and study, same than the queen. They are wise women. Both are experienced in live, self-reliant, independent and have clear objectives. They don’t care much about not having a partner, family isn’t their priority. They like to counsel though, and are good at doing this. HP is perhaps more understanding and helps you to find your own answer, while QS offers her own solutions, doesn’t have empathy. They can penetrate in your mind, detect the lies and know your motivations. However in this the HP is more guided by intuition. QS is by her observation ability and human nature knowledge. Because of this, both can be manipulative if surrounded by bad cards. After all, the HP is a keeper of secrets… The main difference i feel between both is that HP is more passive and receptive, while QS is more active and talkative. Ouch! This was long!! Sorry… I like to explain my points of view :P To me is a good match, but i suppose we all have differnet meanings. .. PD- I apologize if this is unrelated to the main subject of the thread :|

Moongold	02 Jun 2005
Fulgour wrote: My formal correlations are no more than those of long ago, the basic composition blocks of the very ancient teachers. Weeding the garden of occult mysticism and its hobgoblins has freed my imagination to 'soar' on the wings of intuition. Dear Fulgour ~I understand that and have indeed seen it happen with you many times. :)

Moongold	02 Jun 2005
Inana wrote: I see what you mean with HP being intuitive and QS intellectual. It makes some differences, not because the HP is not intellectual, but because the queen is not so intuitive. But still i think they both have a lot in common. They are cold, serious women who try to keep some distance with people. Not the type that usually is making jokes, being passionate or tender in order to show their affection. They are intelligent, intellectual, and cultivated. The HP is depicted with a book or a sacred scroll. She holds knowledge and likes to learn, teach and study, same than the queen. They are wise women. Both are experienced in live, self-reliant, independent and have clear objectives. They don’t care much about not having a partner, family isn’t their priority. They like to counsel though, and are good at doing this. HP is perhaps more understanding and helps you to find your own answer, while QS offers her own solutions, doesn’t have empathy. They can penetrate in your mind, detect the lies and know your motivations. However in this the HP is more guided by intuition. QS is by her observation ability and human nature knowledge. Because of this, both can be manipulative if surrounded by bad cards. After all, the HP is a keeper of secrets… The main difference i feel between both is that HP is more passive and receptive, while QS is more active and talkative. Ouch! This was long!! Sorry… I like to explain my points of view :P To me is a good match, but i suppose we all have differnet meanings. .. PD- I apologize if this is unrelated to the main subject of the thread :| The Queens are often seen as flowing from the Empress. They may hold the wisdom and instinctive knowledge of nature, and the truth of the heart and spirit. The connection with the Empress is mine alone, although it may not be original. I made it because I see Empress as being more of this world and the natural realm, and the Queens also. The Queens also personify the characteristics of their suits, and these are often enacted in the material world. But I also think the High Priestess is the inner expression of the feminine and the Empress the outer. These are in balance and integrated so it would be valid for the Queen of Swords to reflect aspects of the High Priestess. The High Priestess receives wisdom but the Queen of Swords articulates it. The Queen of Swords has a wonderful intellect and spirit. She can be the Mother of the Creative Mind. In this sense I very much see her as connected with the High Priestess. Ah, these Queens are so underestimated :)

Inana	03 Jun 2005
Hi Moongold, I like your observation in viewing the Empress as external feminine expression and HP as internal. I also have connected before all the queens with the Empress, and even have considered the Empress as having the four queens personality in one. These new correspondences came like a flash (well, at least with the queens), guess a bit like what happened to you with pages and the fool. The qualities on the Major Arcana can be seen as different female/male aspects. I mean this as internal/external qualities, not than having nothing to do with sex. Then, each queen reflects more one of those “internal/receptive” energies that the majors represent, and each king those “external/action-oriented”. Still have to see what about the knights. I keep matching all them with the Chariot...

Moongold	03 Jun 2005
A very interesting discussion. :) My association ot the Pages with the Fool in RWS was purely visual and intuitive when considering personal and spiritual development. I think of the Fool as representing the state of being full of grace - innocent and fresh, and certainly see the Pages in RWS having aspcts of that. This is in some ways, quite limited though, and at this point the associations which Fulgour outlined are valuable. The Knights I have always associated with both King and Queen. This reflects my knowledge of their historical role. The Knights to me represent various aspects of action. Unlike you, Inana, I have not associated the Knights with the Chariot though that is an interesting thought and requires some reflection.

The Correspondences between the Court Cards and the Trumps thread was originally posted on 29 May 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.