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Reversed Knight of cups

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 27 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.



Chubby Mummy  27 May 2005 
Hey all!! Havent posted in a while, but I thought Id do a short little post on a debate I had with a friend of mine, we were discussing the knight of cups reversed, she was saying to me hes a man of deceit, a man who is similar to the magician and cannot be trusted, whereas I tell her, the knight of cups reversed is a man who cannot express his emotions the way he normally wants, and needs to for his well being as though he is being pulled back by something, that it can even portray a man who is secretly in love but his fear of rejection is stopping him from expressing his emotions. Basically what we did here is take meanings out of two different books, and shes going with the original rider waite meaning, whereas Ive been looking into Janine renee's books for meanings...

What do u lot think?? Have you had any experiences with a reversed knight of cups??

xxx
cm 


huredriel  27 May 2005 
Hi CM,

Nice to see you back :), I think both of you are right to be honest. It would depend upon the supporting cards, the question asked (if any) and the reader's interpretation at the time. Not much help I'm afraid :D

x Huredriel 


rainwolf  27 May 2005 
I think it can be both, but which one would depend on the card next to it.

If it is near the 7 of swords, it could be deceit.

If it is near the 7 of cups or 5 of cups, it could be difficulty expressing emotion.

But that is just my personal way. 


Chubby Mummy  28 May 2005 
This was a reading my friend did for herself about a man she went out with a while back, these were the 3 cards that fell in the future position, knight of cups rx/8 of wands/queen of pents
As she is generally a non trusting person, she said knight of cups rx was him being deceitful, and her being naive and stupid and being in love with him.
I thought, on first instinct, this was him being secretly in love with her, the knight rx next to the "arrows of love" and his queen, which is herself, which to me tells me theyre both in love, but hes the one who cant express himself as he thinks she will reject him.

What do u think?

xxx
cm
(nice to see u too huredriel! mwa :*) 


tarotbear  28 May 2005 
Don't forget, too ~ Knights can alo represent changes moving through a person's life, and a reversed Knight could be a change that has been altered or stopped. It may also be that the change has brought about unhappiness. 


huredriel  28 May 2005 
Any chance you can get the full spread, and position meanings from her? 


elysgrl  28 May 2005 
I had it appear in one of my own readings at a time when I was being incredibly selfish, indulging in a rich fantasy life that involved somebody other than my husband. So yeah, I guess we could call that deceitful! It wasn't until I looked up the meaning that I realized the cards were trying to tell me I was being a real sh*t.

Denise 


Chubby Mummy  29 May 2005 
Ok I got it! (mods move this if its better in the readings section!)

the cards were random, no specific position meanings:

past: 9 swords rx/2 pents/knight wands

present: judgement rx/4 pents rx/4 cups

future: knight of cups rx/8 wands/queen of pents

Elysgrl, thank u for your interp, but my friend is well settled in singledom, kind of like bridget jones! The only thing i can think of with regards to selfishness is that although they went out for a while, he told her back home (in a diff country) he already had a girlfriend. But what baffles her is that he was the one who pursued her!!

Am I being too optimistic about his feelings for her, could she be right with regards to the deceit? Or is he really in love with her but has a fear of losing everything if he does go back to her?
xxx
cm 


huredriel  29 May 2005 
Just my thoughts, and I'm not fully awake yet (and you know I don't generally do reversals), so probably way off base! Also although no specific meanings, take it this was regarding his feelings for your friend.

past: 9 swords rx/2 pents/knight wands
With 9 swords rx and Knight of wands, he knew what he wanted and went for it (your mate), yet some juggling needed, possibly the fact he had a girlfriend at home, but his thoughts and passion (air and fire = steam) quashed that aspect, trying to find a balance to get desired outcome. Quint here is Justice.

present: judgement rx/4 pents rx/4 cups
First thing noticed, pents in middle again. Thought of reality trying to be smothered. 2 x 4s. Relates Emperor. Rules by Aries, of self. Lack of transformation ... so possibly no real change at present. Introspection, possibly boredom (has he got what he wanted?), yet the 4 pents rx, possible release. Quint Wheel of Fortune here. Possibly looking to his options, considering letting go, but of whom not sure.

future: knight of cups rx/8 wands/queen of pents
He is going to realise your friend is mature, grounded and stable, also strong personality. He could be flirtatious, devious to a certain degree, manipulate to get things moving, and keeping true emotions/intentions to self. Whether or not indicates honesty regarding other relationship I don't know. Quint is strength here. With 8 in middle, get feeling of him trying to tame her as it were.

Overall Quint is Justice again. He is assessing situation, feel it is a balancing of one against other. No cups in past, no wands in present. Has he backed off at the moment? Future no swords, possibly after assessing he will just go for what he wants. For an emotional spread, lack of cups here.

Not much help I'm afraid. I hope things work out for your friends.
Blessings
x Huredriel 


Chubby Mummy  29 May 2005 
Well Huredriel, personally ive done better readings/interpretations when I was half asleep than when i was awake and tried really hard, i think it has something to do with letting your intuition take over, so no worries i think uve done pretty well!!

Do you think the wheel of fortune has anything to do with the tables turning for them, which would mean, although he originally went after her in the past, now shes the one after him as hes backed off, then comes in the wheel - causing him to realise she is a mature dependant person afterall which will make him want to go after her (future cards) and do what he can to win her heart back? hmm (if it sounds like im waffling it could be all those business risk analysis questions ive been doing, kind of like analysing tarot!lol)

xxx
cm 


huredriel  29 May 2005 
Hmmm possibly. You know I don't generally do predictive, not that brave yet :D. With the Queen pents, yes I think he is going to realise her worth ... possibly because of past experiences between the two ... this could be why the knight is reversed ..... he could be devious ... i.e. play her ... worm his way back into her good books, hide the depth of emotion. IMHO not many people would have the balls after a break-up to boldly march up to the other's front door and state their intentions, especially if they hurt that person. Too afraid of getting rejected. 


Chubby Mummy  29 May 2005 
Ooo I just told her and shes not convinced!! I will let you know what happens!!

xxx
cm 


Scorpion  29 May 2005 
Chubby Mummy wrote:
past: 9 swords rx/2 pents/knight wands

present: judgement rx/4 pents rx/4 cups

future: knight of cups rx/8 wands/queen of pents
Hi, Chubby Mummy!

I'm from the school that thinks reversals contain the main emphasis: the things that should jump out at us.

So taking it from the past line: obviously it caused her a lot of heartache to realise that he was just toying with her emotions - obvious question here: is he worth all the upset? The 2 Pents could be seen as him juggling his interest in her and his "other love". I imagine he was pretty much the Knight of Wands type, who'd sweep her off her feet on her first dealings with him.

Moving to the present: for someone who from what you say is pretty much the Bridget Jones type, this is important: Judgment asking the question "what do you really want in your life?" The emphasis on the 4 Pents indicates that she should be guarding her heart chakra and remaining very grounded. The 4 Cups could be him - not interested unless he has to work for it?

In the future position, I see a real warning in the Knight of Cups. With the emphasis fairly and squarely on him, I have to say I regard this character as someone who loves to be in love. Or rather, lives to be in love. It really is his "holy grail". Sadly, I also view him as someone who's more in love with himself than any real woman - quite possible he tallies up conquests to boost his ego. Or that he really does think each one is "the one", until the next one that is. To me, the 8 Wands is the card of speed (one day I got this in my daily draw and had an offer of a new job by the end of the day - I'll never laugh at it again!). It could indicate a decision taken quickly - as it leads to the Queen of Pentacles, I suspect she's going to thaw: he's going to pull that Peter Pan face and like every other woman in the world, she's going to fall for it!

Don't know if that helps any!!! 


firemaiden  29 May 2005 
Dear Chubby, you and your friend are going to argue for a very long time, because she has obviously read somewhere that this is the reversed meaning, and believes that if it is written, that is the meaning, end of story.

I am now looking up the Knight of Cups in Paul Huson's "Mystical Origin's of the Tarot" to see if I can find what she read. This book gives a compendium of historical meanings for each card, beginning with 18th century traditional cartomancy, moving to Eteilla's meanings, then to Mathers, the Golden Dawn, and finally Waite.

Okay, here it is: Huson says the meaning given by Etteilla for Knight of Cups reversed is "Crookedness, rascality, deceit, ruse, artifice, slickness, cleverness, suppleness, trickery, subtelty, lawlessness, wickedness"

From Mathers : reversed = "duplicity, abuse of confidence, fraud, cunning.

For the Golden Dawn if "ill dignified, he is intensely evil and merciless". (mind you the entire meaning for him here is both light and dark - even when not "ill-dignified" "he is subtle, violent, crafty, and artistic. Powerful for good or evil, but more attracted by the evil if allied with apparent Power of Wisdom."

From Waite (but Vincent taught us that Waite's merely repeated the traditional cartomantic meanings and that he had little stock in them) Knight of cups-- reversed = "trickery, artifice, subtlety, swindling, duplicty, fraud.

So you see, my dear Chubby Mummy, if your friend would like to read according to the inherited tradition dating back at least as far as the Eighteenth century, if not much further, well, then she is quite right.

However, what has happened to reading, and interpreting cards since Waite compiled his meanings from the tradition in 1910? and even more pertinent -- what has happened to the way in which we approach reversals?

A perusal of Mary Greer's book on tarot reversals will reveal twelve different ways to consider them - (and I also believe the reversed meaning should be optional and depend on the surrounding cards)- See my thread about Mary Greer's book: Reversals Revisited, or twelve ways to love reversals.

So, Chubby Mummy, you can tell your friend, that if she is interested in understanding why you find a different interpretation, that she ought to join Aeclectic, and hang out here for a while... 


The Reversed Knight of cups thread was originally posted on 27 May 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.

 


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