What's with the fascination with darkness?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 21 May 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

Deana	21 May 2005
I just don't get it. Why do people want "dark decks" with "dark images" to give them "dark readings"? What does that even mean? Are all these dark images for, like, the police department to try to find out what happened to a victim? Or for a bored teenager to pretend to be "deep"? The thing that strikes me the most about people looking for "darkness" are that they're usually half my age and they say things like, "Life isn't all bubbles and light. We have to embrace darkness as well as light." And I'm thinking, "Right..." When people say we need to embrace darkness, I immediately think their lives must be too cushy to even understand darkness. Do we need to embrace rape as well as love? Of course not. We need to survive the negative and embrace the positive. Do we need to embrace murder as well as birth? No. We need to punish the murderer and rejoice at the birth. Do we need to embrace war as well as peace? In my opinion, we need to work towards peace and endure war. Hardships and brutality are facts of life, yes, but do we need to embrace them? I don't think we do. When it's adults rather than teens who want darkness, I wonder if they have deep-seated defeatist thought patterns. I think embracing "darkness" is really another way of saying, "Life sucks and there's nothing I can do about it, so I need to accept that every time I walk down the street there might be a murderer around the corner." Gee, there might be, but what a way to live! What we focus on increases in our lives. It just does. When we focus on negativity things get worse and worse and we seem to get into one situation after another that's unbelievably bad. I know, I've been through some stuff...and I've created ridiculous dramas in my life. When we focus on the positive, we don't suddenly get a life of butterflies and rainbows, but we do stop creating melodrama and start dealing with things from an adult position of strength rather than a childish, "Omigod! Life is so hard!" Maybe I was too negative as a teen. Maybe I'm jaded from spending ten years clinically depressed (it's been four years since I've been better). Maybe I'm just tired of repeat querents, the kind who have the same problem every week and they aren't trying to fix it, they're creating the negativity because it makes them feel alive or something. I just can't get over the idea that the fixation on darkness is a melodramatic reaction of bored young people whose lives have been so cushy they like to imagine that "darkness" is interesting. Or, worse, immature 50 yr olds who are still creating melodrama in their lives and refusing to be responsible for their situations (because it's life in all it's darkness that makes their car break down in the middle of nowhere, not the fact that they haven't changed the oil since 1999). Now that I'm (a little) older and (a little) more mature, I like to focus on the positive and find solutions to the negative. If you are mature, and not melodramatic, and you like cards that tell you blood and gore is around every corner and there is Real Evil in the world...after you get done telling me what I naive fluffball I am, please explain to me why focusing on negativity is healthier than acknowledging evil but focusing on love and beauty. After all, we want love and beauty in life, not brutal murders and rape, right? How is it naive to focus on what we want and not all the nasty things that *could* happen? Maybe it's just for the humor value? I mean, I'm a huge Buffy fan, not because I "embrace darkness" but because it's darn funny. Am I just missing the humor value of "dark" decks?

Ilithiya	21 May 2005
Very well written post, Deana! For some, it's simply an aesthetic thing. I'll take a Vargo Gothic or a Giger over a Marseille any day - and no offense to those who love the Marseille decks. I simply like the others better. On the other hand, some people may find it easier to read for the core issues of a problem with a dark deck. When you've got a leak, you don't patch the pipe with a bandaid, you replace it (so to speak) and finding where that "leak" is can be easier with a darker deck. The majority of people looking for a "dark" deck are the same ones who see each deck as having its own language and way of communicating. I'm one of those. Sometimes we've got stuff to root through and deal with and if we use Tarot as a part of that, it's easier to have a deck that "speaks the language". Of course, there will always be the kids wanting a deck for shock value. Can't do anything about that. :) Illy

Oriana	21 May 2005
The Vampire Tarot is one of my favourite decks (okay, so I only own a few - so far!); I don't know if that counts as "dark", I don't see it that way but maybe some people would. I actually find it quite gentle and slightly mischevious even; the cards make me smile. I think it's all just a matter of taste; as with any deck, cards that some people might find ugly, distasteful or frightening, others will embrace. For an example, The Fool is perhaps my favourite card out of the Vampires deck. He is soaked in blood, carrying two bloodstained knives, one of which he is licking... he has an attitude, I feel, that one doesn't often find with Fools :) I relate to him very well, he doesn't actually turn up too often in readings for me but when he does there is a great feeling of empathy and sympathy. I find the card quite soothing to look at. The same to a lesser extent with several other of the cards in the deck; I can look at them and go "yeah, I know where you're coming from". It does sound like you're referring to people who have quite immature attitudes; I don't know if that applies to me ;) it's true I've always considered myself a teenager at heart! My take on it is that if you are feeling down and depressed, trying to "focus on the positive" for some people might be like brushing your negative feelings aside, pretending they don't exist; not being true to yourself. Turning to a "dark" or "depressing" deck can be comforting like that; "it knows how I feel". Of course if I'm feeling down and depressed I also tend not to go around telling all the world about it, or about my need for a tool that matches and embraces my feelings; that I think is the real melodramatic, and immature, part...

firemaiden	21 May 2005
Deana, you raise really interesting questions! I am looking forward to hearing from some of our famous dark-deckers. :D I wonder if it is not a bit of Goethian romanticism of melancholy à la Sufferings of Young Werther. How delicious that romantic feeling of suffering over love -- I hereby admit and fully confess, that I have adored feeling miserable, and had quite an attachment to it. Melancholy feels so delicious, fulfilling and addictive, like deep chocolate mud pie.

Umbrae	21 May 2005
In “Bruce Almighty,” God and Bruce are discussing some of the ‘work’ that Bruce had done. There is a wonderful line that goes, “Triumph is born out of struggle. Faith is the alchemist. If you want to paint pictures like this, you have to use some dark colours.” Dark decks, do not produce dark readings. Dark decks simply have, or provide, a different palette. FYI: I use dark decks, but not for first time sitters. Dark decks are reserved for clients who want or need them, and or for personal use. I am Male and over 50. I find some of your comments to be hasty generalizations, and I imagine you did not intend for some comments to be offensive, they painted with a broad brush, and left no room for exceptions. Dark decks produce the same positive readings that fluffy bunny decks provide. They provide the same positive solutions. They do not produce readings where blood and gore fills a life. They do not glorify rape. Your post is about misunderstanding dark decks. So ease up on the judgmentalism…

Sentient	21 May 2005
Deana - I sympathize with what you have to say. It definitely appears as if "darkness" is a fad these days, all cleaned up, sanitized and ready for consumption via TV shows, horror movies, novels and scary imagery. I think the appeal for those who follow such fads is not too different from the thrills one might get on a roller-coaster ride: a visceral appeal that goes far enough to be fun, but one that is quite safe and stops after a convenient amount of time. Real fear is very different, as most know. I find when I think about these things that it’s useful to make some sharp distinctions. One is between the safe antiseptic “darkness” that I believe is in vogue, and the real darkness that you refer to. Real darkness can be terrifying, and once experienced tends to diminish one's taste for the surface variety. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that because others are using the word “darkness” that they mean the same thing you do, because they don’t. Of course they may think they do, but that’s a different discussion. Another distinction I make is between an activity and the people one sees engaging in it. I’m drawn to the Tarot for a number of reason, but mainly because of the depth of meaning I perceive, the beauty of the complex combinations that are created, and the meaningful interactions it allows. But I certainly would not have become involved if I judged it by the people I usually see associated with it – from the psychic hotlines, to the gypsy-like hucksters to the clairvoyants that are anything but. I love the Tarot despite what I see, not because of it. Please don’t judge all interest in darkness (as you use the term) by the people you usually see professing an interest in it. Another distinction is between how darkness is commonly perceived, and how it is in reality. The terrible acts you mentioned are indeed terrible, but darkness is an abstraction that properly refers to the impulses to commit these acts. I believe that such impulses are within all of us. In famous paper, a Yale University psychologist conducted an experiment to determine if normal people could be persuaded to electrically shock other people whom they did not know. All of the experimenters predicted that normal college students would refuse to continue shocking others as the voltage increased. The results surprised them. It was demonstrated that with only a little encouragement 65% of the people could be induced to cause severe pain to others. I encourage you to read the details of this important experiment. See “The Perils of Obedience” (1974) by Stanley Milgram. I must admit that I think that red capes and fangs are mainly good as Halloween costumes. But if the history of the last 5000 years has taught us anything, it’s that man is as ready to make war and inflict the worst horrors imaginable on his fellow man as he ever was (forgive the male pronouns). An exploration of that, and how we can control and prevent it, is a goal worth pursuing. With that I’ll get off my soapbox. :) Sentient

Kyrea Gold	21 May 2005
Interesting post. I'm not sure exactly what decks you are speaking of. The decks I would consider my darkest would be my Vampire deck, Vargo's Gothic and probably the Bosch (although i find that one kind of cute). I would love a Giger. I also study metaphysics (Law of Attraction especially) so I believe I get what I focus on and my dark decks are awesome to read with and see where my mind is when I am having resistance in an area, etc. I am a happy, cup half full and will be overflowing, girl; an optimist - and I love my darker decks and the happy Doreen Virtuish decks equally! Kyrea

Deana	21 May 2005
Well, Umbrae, I wish you'd given me more of an answer and less of a reaction against what you perceive to be my judgementalism. I'm sure you could give me an answer that would help me understand. If dark decks give the same positive readings as a fluffy deck, then what's the point? And why should a deck be "dark" or Happy Sunshine Pollyanna Lollypop? If a reading is more serious, wouldn't a deck like Morgan Greer, which is neither dark nor fluffy, be serious enough for a reading? There are several "serious" decks for when you're *not* playing and life has real issues, but I'm asking why people want decks with some of the graphic nastiness that only someone who hasn't experienced actual trauma would want to look at. Like I said, I can understand a certain Buffy-esque empowerment in laughing at evil rather than being terrified of it. But I just don't get the huge fascination with dark this and dark that and to some extent it's the new fluffy-bunnyism. "Look at me! I'm so scary and deep!" Since you of all people are not going for the, "I'm so dark I frighten grown-ups" aspect, then I wish I'd gotten a more in-depth answer from you. I feel I did leave room for exceptions to my generalizations by asking on a forum where there are mature people who don't fit the type I normally associate with the fluffy play darkness. Why choose a deck that focuses on "yep, the world really is evil and things really are bad" rather than focusing more positively like, "This situation seems to be pretty serious. Let's see how we can rise above it/solve it/cut our losses and get out of it." If I'm misunderstanding dark decks, then explain to me how. If they aren't intended to be humorous, and they aren't intended to glorify violence, and they give happy positive readings...what on earth am I missing here?

Deana	21 May 2005
I really agree with what you're saying, Sentient, that a lot of the fad darkness fills a sort of roller coaster ride need for "safe" scariness. Once, I was in a car with someone and he was lost and we drove through a neighborhood so bad that the church was called C.R.A.C.K. H.O.U.S.E. Ministries. There was rampant poverty and it was a very depressing neighborhood. After we got back on the right road, he asked me if it felt like an amusement park ride in a way, being in such a bizarre, impoverished place. I was stunned. No, buddy, that 's not a twisted amusement park ride into some place so awful it can't be true. That's a real neighborhood with real people whose lives are really that bad. That's what I'm saying about cushy lives and the correlation between having a life that's anything but dark and being attracted to darkness. I'm actually familiar with the experiment you're talking about. I majored in psychology once upon a time. I'm not saying that humans aren't capable of true evil. I'm saying that they are. And that what we focus on increases (look at the wild success of the War on Drugs: "Children, drugs are bad. They make you feel like you're on a carnival ride. You can buy them on your own street corner. Don't use them no matter how fun they look!"). It's precisely because there is real darkness in the world that I prefer to focus on love and peace and any moments of joy that can be found despite it all. When things are bad, I want to know how to make it better or whether it's time to get out. How do I solve or survive the challenges? How do I find happiness despite the unhappiness rampant in the world? I see life as a continuum with complete chaos and violence on one side and complete love and joy on the other and we're always balancing these forces in life. I think it's healthier emotionally to focus on the good things and not glorify evil unless the need for melodrama makes someone want to create one mess after another for themselves (I see this so often). I believe because I have seen it, that Like really does attract Like and that what we focus on really does increase. Focusing on the positive doesn't make the negative go away, but it makes life happier. Focusing on the negative doesn't make the positive go away, but it does block the ability to experience the happiness when it's right there in front of us. Attitude is underestimated as a factor in whether life is experienced as pleasant or unpleasant.

Scion	21 May 2005
Deana, I've been mulling and trying to gather my thought before I respond because I think there are several embedded a priori assumptions in your question that actually point to an answer. I'm assuming your post wasn't intended to initiate conflict, but in fact the tone of exasperation and implacability makes it seem quite combative... especially to the wide population of people who read with "dark" decks without being A)pubescent or B)emotionally stunted. Deana wrote: What we focus on increases in our lives. It just does. When we focus on negativity things get worse and worse and we seem to get into one situation after another that's unbelievably bad. I know, I've been through some stuff...and I've created ridiculous dramas in my life. When we focus on the positive, we don't suddenly get a life of butterflies and rainbows, but we do stop creating melodrama and start dealing with things from an adult position of strength rather than a childish, "Omigod! Life is so hard!" Woven through this statement is a worldview which is very helpful to many people in day-to-day life of everyday personal problems. That said, it is an internally consistent view, though a not altogether honest one. It is true that many people create crisis and avoid responsibility by generating conflict and agita around themselves. But to be fair, focusing on the positive doesn't ward off earthquakes and assault. For some people, the "darkness" in life is not all personally manufactured. Then again, I don't know that "dark" decks have anything to do with one's experience as much as a connection to the visual style. Deana wrote: If a reading is more serious, wouldn't a deck like Morgan Greer, which is neither dark nor fluffy, be serious enough for a reading? Depending on your audience. I know several thousand born-again folk who would disagree with that staement, violently. Not to sound ingenuous, but what exactly is a dark deck? Obviously the "darkness" like almost evrything, is in the eye of the beholder. I would assert that the Tarot is an attempt to illustrate the numinous, to articulate the inarticulable. I would assert that all art is an attempt to capture something that is in its very essence impossible to capture. As with all art, sometimes creators push the limits of comfort to make their audience see things in a new, startling way, in an attempt to snap them out of complacency. Which doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong... but rather that you will never see through their eyes, because in the attempt those creators have lost you. But they have not lost everyone. As any humanist will tell you, your "nasty" is not universally agreed upon. To quote Seneca: "I am human and therefore I find nothing human alien to me." To say that certain decks are "middle of the road" is to imply that your middle is THE middle, which is of course not true. And appealing to a "common decency," to my ears sounds a lot like the first step on the road to censorship. NOT that I'm suggesting that you wish to censor anyone, but rather that the belief that something is immediately "negative" because of it's subject or content is often the first kindling on the bonfire of the humanities. Deana wrote: why people want decks with some of the graphic nastiness that only someone who hasn't experienced actual trauma would want to look at. Um. No. A wild assumption to make and assert as fact. I'm going to say that you're incorrect and leave it at that. Deana wrote: I just don't get it. And that's fine. I think you provided the answer to your question IN your question, (and I don't mean this to sound flippant): It's just you. In the same way that certain people don't like oracles or some people think divination is a channel opened to Shaitan. No one is supposed to connect with all decks, anymore than everyone is supposed to enjoy all music or see every movie. But to imply that taste should be universal or that variances in taste are equivalent to degrees to emotional stability is perhaps a "dark" statement in its own right. Scion

Emily	21 May 2005
I've been sitting here and thinking about my collection and I don't own one dark deck, apart from the Liber T that I let go because I didn't like the artwork. I do however have the Gothic Tarot of Vampires in the post and on its way to me and have an order for Vargo's Gothic ready to go the minute I'm back from my holiday. I think all decks have an aspect of 'dark' about them - I do use the Morgan Greer which can be quite harsh but I am looking forward to getting the Vampire tarot and the Gothic - not because I want dark readings but because I've fell in love with the artwork. I'm not sure how these decks will read, especially Vargo's Gothic - but my readings won't be going dark, I'll be asking the same questions that I would ask with my Morgan Greer - it'll be interesting to see how I get on with these decks.

Deana	21 May 2005
No, I'm not trying to be combative and I'm certainly not going for censorship. Just trying to understand something and stating where I'm coming from to begin with. I am more likely to be persuaded to look into dark decks than to call for a ban on them! I'm laying my preconceptions on the table and asking people from another viewpoint what it looks like from their side. I honestly like to hear viewpoints that differ from my own. The reason I didn't mention any particular deck is because I frequently cringe for the creator of decks I see being slammed. But I'm not talking about vampires. I'm talking about depictions of human-on-human rape and murder, like some decks I have seen on websites and sometimes seen discussed. I could be persuaded to start buying decks that have goth qualities or a certain eeriness to them, but not decks that depict brutality. I can look at the pictures from Iraq if I wanted to see those sorts of things. Which I don't. And I do agree that people don't create all the negativity in their own lives. To believe that we alone create all circumstances from our thoughts is to have delusions of grandeur as well as to blame the victim. But our thoughts and attitudes are immensely important nonetheless, which is why I don't focus on evil.

firemaiden	21 May 2005
This is a fascinating discussion. I am enjoying the diverse points of view. I would also like to hear more from Umbrae and others about what makes the appeal of certain decks like for example the Giger. Certainly Deana posed an interesting hypothesis that maybe decks that suggest trauma and violence appeal mostly to those who have not experienced it. It was an wonderful entry for the discussion, because it gives us something rather pointed to react to. Now I have just been thinking about this and realized, I for one, am a person who has not actually experienced much trauma. I have not been in a war, or a house fire, nor have I seen anyone murdered, I have not lost anyone very close to me yet, I am not an abuse victim. So I think it is safe to say that, under this hypothesis, I should be an example of the person to whom such decks would appeal. But I can't really say I like "dark decks". (Although yes, we need to explore what makes a deck dark!) I think it is probably safe to say the Giger is dark, and the vampire decks are pretty dark, especially the ones with chopped off hands and blood dripping from them. I prefer the mermaids myself... One thing I've learned the hard way is that it is that generalizations about people don't usually hold up. (You all know how I hate the Meyers Briggs boxes and those of the horoscope). Of course, there are movements. I think the vampire-goth thing qualifies as a movement. The great French writer Michel Tournier once wrote a novel (merde I forget the title) about a couple that couldn't live together happily until all their friends came to visit and told lots of stories. They wove a dwelling of stories for the couple to live in happily ever after. In my opinion, religions with their dogma and the often far-fetched stories that you have to agree to believe are true in order to belong, are like houses of stories. The mythology provides the context for a people to be happy and belong together. Maybe the Goth movement, the sharing of vampire stories and pictures builds a sort of umbrella of atmosphere for people to be in together. I don't know. Just a thought.

Imagemaker	21 May 2005
Quote: Maybe the Goth movement, the sharing of vampire stories and pictures builds a sort of umbrella of atmosphere for people to be in together. This was (still is, a bit) certainly true for my daughter from ages 13 to 21. A bit to shock the parents, a bit to explore their own dark sides, a bit to be counterculture from all the rah-rah blonde models with dazzling smiles holding up products (anti-materialism was a part of her Goth group's aim. She is still VERY anti-TV.) I think it's all a matter of taste. I've suffered little actual trauma and do not like horror imagery--it feels draining and negative to me. I have a friend who had an actual horrific childhood and first marriage with constant violence. She married a second husband who had an equally horrible childhood. She writes horror, only goes to see horror movies, and thinks I'm "weak" for not being able "to stand it." I think she keeps proving to herself that she has survived her early years and can handle anything. I don't like fluffy decks, the sweet ones, but I want a balance of accepting our evil-potential without dwelling there. I just keep aiming for more Light.

rainwolf	21 May 2005
Must be a teen angst thing because I never wanted a 'dark' deck. However, I sometimes enjoy 'dim' decks that aren't employing every bright color under the sun. I think people that want these dark and goth decks are using them for attention and uses that stray away from more modern uses of self-knowledge and discovering future possiblities.

firemaiden	21 May 2005
Deana wrote: The reason I didn't mention any particular deck is because I frequently cringe for the creator of decks I see being slammed. But I'm not talking about vampires. I'm talking about depictions of human-on-human rape and murder, like some decks I have seen on websites and sometimes seen discussed. I could be persuaded to start buying decks that have goth qualities or a certain eeriness to them, but not decks that depict brutality. I can look at the pictures from Iraq if I wanted to see those sorts of things. Which I don't. I can think of one particular deck (not published, and not affiliated with anyone on this site) on the web that is truly evil, and would probably disgust most anyone. Not all decks are created equal... there are some wackos out there, decks can reflect their creator. On the other hand... now that you have me thinking.. there is a rape about to happen decipted in the Manara deck. I have never thought of that badly however, I know the Manara deck is created from Manara's erotic artwork, mostly from comic book type books with story lines, and took it to be part of something along the lines of a fantasy. Obviously there is an entire universe of difference between a game between consenting individuals (like a rape fantasy) and the brutal crime. Which do the pictures depict.... how do we react to them, what do they make us think about? And what is it have to do with tarot? (Not a rhetorical question). But.... oo oo oo -- here's something else... (see you really have me thinking, Deana, and that is a very good thing!!) The Margarete Petersen deck was created by someone who obviously has a very loving spirit, and who has done lots of spiritual work, her deck is meant to be a tool for spiritual growth, and the messages in her booklet are extraordinarily positive. Yet, to me some of her cards are very very dark, and quite disturbing - suggesting fragemented selves, states of terror, but in an abstract way! The Lo Scarabeo Tarot of the Imagination also depicts some very dark moments -- the round up of jews into box cars for example, a beheading, and massacre about to happen. Maybe it is because tarot is an art form -- and art seeks to grapple with violence and brutality and try to come to terms with it somehow. I am in an opera about the dropping of the atom bomb. Doctor Atomic. The subject is so disturbing and horrifying, but the music and poety is beautiful and compelling. Well... I think I could go on for ever, your question raises so many more questions-- - about the role of violence in art, for example.

deranged_walrus	21 May 2005
Before I add in my thoughts, I'd like to ask Deanna what you mean by dark decks? Can you give us specific titles, what you had in mind when you posed this question?

Tesseljoan	21 May 2005
To me, it is a matter of aesthetics. Since you don't want to define dark decks, I'm a bit in the dark as to what dark means. I like decks that I have seen called dark on this forum, and I was surprised about it. To me, all the decks that I like are aesthetically pleasing decks that I do or did readings with (with some decks with more pleasure then others, and those have moved on to new homes), I make no distinction between dark or fluffy; but I guess I have owned both at some stage. I am an student of art history, and what I htink of as beautiful is what is important to me (and for me, that's a positive thing) However, I do have a problem with violence. I can't find violence beautiful, even if it is interesting art from an art historical perspective. But then I'll take a more 'professional' look at it and distance myself a bit... But tarot reading is not part of my professional life. I can filter those images out if I want, and I do. To sum up, I don't care whether a deck is dark or not. It just has to be congruent to my personal taste.

Nevada	21 May 2005
Deana, I realize you've since posted about the types of decks you're referring to. Most of this was written before you posted that, but I believe much of it still applies, at least to the general issue of darkness, if not the specific decks you were thinking of: Deana wrote: What's with the fascination with darkness? I just don't get it. Why do people want "dark decks" with "dark images" to give them "dark readings"? What does that even mean? Are all these dark images for, like, the police department to try to find out what happened to a victim? Or for a bored teenager to pretend to be "deep"? I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I'm far from being a teenager (I'm 48), but the reason I looked for a "dark" deck is to help me explore my own darker crevices. And darkness isn't always just the "bad" stuff. If you look at the world through the concept of yin and yang, you see darkness a little differently. Umbrae put this well, with his reference to color. It takes both light and dark colors to make up the spectrum. Deana wrote: When people say we need to embrace darkness, I immediately think their lives must be too cushy to even understand darkness. I wouldn't call my life cushy. I've struggled with grief, depression, the violent death of a loved one, money problems, health problems, family troubles--you name it. Most people have problems. I don't know anyone past a fairly young age who hasn't experienced some trouble. Teenagers today see more trouble in the world around them than I did growing up. It's not in their imagination. It's real. I've also experienced a lot of joy and blessings. I acknowledge both sides of life. I see a lot of denial in the world, and problems don't get solved through denial, but through understanding them, finding the root causes. That requires digging into places a lot of people refuse to go. Aren't we fortunate there are people willing to do some of the less savory tasks, to collect trash or clean our teeth? Perform autopsies? Repair sewer pipes? Solve crime? Fight poverty? If they're not looking into darkness every day, I don't know who is. They must focus on it in order to do their jobs. Me? I have trouble focusing on any of these kinds of tasks. But I consider that a weakness on my part, not a strength. Because I avoid it, it's a weakness and a point of darkness, something I want to understand better. Deana wrote: Do we need to embrace rape as well as love? Of course not. We need to survive the negative and embrace the positive. Do we need to embrace murder as well as birth? No. We need to punish the murderer and rejoice at the birth. Do we need to embrace war as well as peace? In my opinion, we need to work towards peace and endure war. Hardships and brutality are facts of life, yes, but do we need to embrace them? I don't think we do. I think you're confusing darkness with a perception of evil. And no, we don't have to embrace these things, but I believe we need to understand them. You mentioned working with the police. Preventing crime and enforcing the law requires an understanding of the underlying causes, and it's not something we can understand by only focusing on the positives. Deana wrote: What we focus on increases in our lives. It just does. When we focus on negativity things get worse and worse and we seem to get into one situation after another that's unbelievably bad. I know, I've been through some stuff...and I've created ridiculous dramas in my life. When we focus on the positive, we don't suddenly get a life of butterflies and rainbows, but we do stop creating melodrama and start dealing with things from an adult position of strength rather than a childish, "Omigod! Life is so hard!" I agree that what we focus on may increase in our lives, but that depends on how we focus on it. There's more to it than focus alone. Do I examine problems in order to create something better? Or do I ignore problems and just hope they go away? As for people who create their own drama, well, I see that as an imbalance, but I don't think it's caused by "embracing darkness". A lot of people who do this are drawing attention away from their own responsibility for their lives. If they were to do some shadow work they might begin to see the world and themselves more clearly. A large part of what you address in your post is, in my opinion, a matter of perception. Do you group decks into strict categories of Dark and Light? Doesn't any useful Tarot deck contain both? And isn't each person's impression of what constitutes a dark deck a little different? Many people consider the Thoth dark, but I don't. I went looking for a "dark" deck a year or so ago and fell in love with the Vargo Gothic. I haven't used it much yet, mainly because I don't care for how it shuffles, but the few readings I've done with it weren't negative, violent or scary at all. They were insightful, perceptive, and amazingly clear and helpful. I've said sometimes that I dislike horror movies, but in reality there are movies under that classification that I like a lot. The Breed comes immediately to mind. The whole gothic feel of it appeals to me. It's beautiful. I read and write mysteries, and some people consider them dark, but one aspect I like is there's usually a triumph of good, and justice in the end. But I have to say, most of the focus on darkness that I do is related to my writing, and a lot of soul searching goes into it. Gratuitous violence and gore disturb me, and I avoid them. But looking at things from all sides, seeing and acknowledging the darkness in the world and in myself, are all things I consider helpful in my growth as a human being and as a spirit. If we don't take a good look at things we consider evil, how do we really know they're "evil"? Some people are told Tarot is evil. If they aren't willing to look at what they see as dark, they miss out on something quite wonderful. And how do we ever learn to overcome evil, if we don't get to know something about it? I hope you didn't only react to Umbrae's post in anger. I think he made some brilliant points. But you should understand that some of your statements seem to assume a lot about other people, and you're addressing a lot of different issues in one post, some of which don't relate to dark decks at all. No one is forcing anyone to look at dark decks if they don't want to. Here's an excerpt I think applies to your question, from a book titled, Instructions to the Cook by Bernard Glassman and Rick Fields (on Buddhism): "If you can work with what you reject, it turns out that you're working with yourself, with those parts of yourself that you've rejected. If I can learn to work with a rich person whom I've rejected, for example, then I can begin dealing with the richness rather than the poverty in myself." Some of us choose to do this by working with a darker deck now and then. Some of us by focusing on and learning about the darkness in the world, or in ourselves. Nevada

Scion	21 May 2005
Nevada, I was about to post a reply following up on my earlier rushed post... But you literally spoke my truth, and in a manner more gentle and temperate than I might have managed. A beautiful, articulate post. 'Nuff said. Scion

Umbrae	21 May 2005
Dark Decks Let’s look into the realm of Dark Decks. What is a Dark Deck? Do they promote negative thinking? Negative readings? To begin with, what is a Dark Deck. Some are dark because of the palette, whereas some simply have a palate of imagery that creates darkness. Still some become known as dark in name only. So let’s look at a few in each area, and then explore where they may be used. The Tarot Swietlistej Drogi comes from Poland and artist Alla Alicja Chrzanowska. A rough English translation of the deck's title would be “Tarot of the Radiant Path, and is considered by some to be dark. The palette is limited to black, white, and yellow – and the images are created using only these colors. The images themselves are a serious departure from the traditional American/English and Marseilles Tarot. They appear to be based on a numerological progression. In the Tarot Swietlistej Drogi, Swords are intellect as opposed to the ‘pain and suffering’ that we may be used to seeing. Predominant images besides Swords are books, plans, and people in thought. The Three of Swords depicts a man with three swords…and the ghost figure of a bird escaping from his lips. The 10 of Swords shows a man studying books in a library. Although books surround him, one book sits to our left that is different than the others. To me, it evokes a feeling that one project is ending – and another is at hand. The tone of the deck is uplifting, but some users are put off by the severity, and the overwhelming amount of black on each card. Very positive deck to work with. The deck images are beautiful. Some of the illustrations are in full flower (Literally). Continental numbering. The Vargo Gothic presents what at first appears to be a palette/palate issue. Very dark, very limited use of color, creates a brooding set of images. Or so it seems at first. No argument, it’s dark, gothic…and ultimately filled with images of love and longing. I find that it speaks beyond the mundane, tactile world we live in; and it takes me to where love lives beyond this world. I remember writing of the Ten of Cups, “And this appears to provide a deviation from a standard interpretive theory which might discuss family and joy, or success. I see two eternal lovers sharing the deepest joys that can be had – a deep joy from the depths of the soul…and life eternal…yeah - see - I wanna be that guy…” H.R. Giger is a 22 card (majors only) deck of very very dark dark cards. Simple palette. Grey, black, white, a little blue. Swiss artist H. R. Giger did not design art for a tarot deck. Preexisting art was used with his permission by the artist Akron. However a look at the body of work by Giger may help shed light on his artistic metaphors. HR Giger received an academy award for his design work on the film Alien, directed by Ridley Scott Ridley Scott said of Giger, “At its essence, Giger's art digs down into our psyches and touches our very deepest primal instincts and fears. His work has always had a disturbing effect on me, as it has had on so many others.” Clive Barker, in an excerpt from the introduction of Giger’s Necronomicon2 says, “Giger has no truck with superfice; he plunges his hands into the raw stuff of our subconscious, and using methodologies that are unique to him creates a state that is rigorous, hierarchical and, for all its abysmal depths, inviting" 'In mapping the tribal lands of our psyches Giger gives us fresh access to them. He frees us, in essence, to wander there, encouraged by the fact that others have gone before. He makes us brave, and I can think of few higher ambitions for any art. Following where he's gone, we discover that this new country, which we came into fearful of our sanity, about our lives in countless places. We are not, after all, strangers here. It's the world we must return into the world of the mortgage payment and the tax return;of the domestic tiff and the public slight that seems chilling, repulsive, alien." Harlan Ellison states in the introduction of HR Giger’s Biomechanics, “He gives us the elements of the shark, the spider, the scorpion, insects, worms, crocodiles, teeth, crushing limbs, wombs, razor surfaces across and down which we slide unable to get a hand hold, bottomless depths, malevolent eyes, the death rictus and sybaritic leer. This man knows what we fear. And he shows it to us again and again. Don't bother me with this "terrible beauty" nonsense. That's for parvenus, for diddlers. Giger is working with primal materials, and his mission is to stand our hair on end. To unnerve us. There is already a plethora that spends its time telling us how secure and swell everything is. There will always be medicore men and women who gravitate to the Better Business Bureau and the Establishment of the Safe Ideas Boosters and flag wavers; pollyannas and con-artists those who lie without knowing they lie because they cannot face the truth and those with veted interests who lie because it is in their best interests. And the artists will continue to be called depreaved, decadent, obscene, disgusting, troublesome, unnerving. Ah, yes, precisely the point." And the late Timothy Leary said, “There is no evil in the poopy magnified cell growths within our bodies. The worst thing you can say about Giger's Alien is this: She eats to live. Is She ugly? No more ugly than we would look to any member of the food chain that we regularly and thoughtlessly pop in our red, gulping, adenoidal mouths three times a day. Giger's art has consistently wrestled with the paradox of The Beauty and the Beast. Thus he adds another chapter to the wondrous encyclopedia of mutants who represent those aspects of ourselves that we are not ready to wine and dine with.” In 2002, the United States Library of Congress deemed Alien "culturally significant" and selected it for preservation in the National Film Registry. Mage: The Ascension, has a very different feel to it. Each of the minor suits was created by a different artist, so each (as they should) have a different feel. The entire deck has Science Fiction feel to it. Very usable, very readable, very dark. Tarot of the Dead…heck, read the review by Dan Pelletier at the bottom half of the page. It is dark in name only. Just for kicks, let’s look at what I predict will be the most overlooked deck of the year, The Tarot of White Cats. Many, will take one look at the box and say, “Oh, ain’t that cute, little kitties on Tarot cards”. It will be assumed to be a ‘sunny bunny’ deck. Wait till you look at the ‘bad cards’…as that Dan guy says, “There’s some heavy stuff here.” Ohhhh and what about that new deck, “Revelations”? It’s a light bouncy deck when you first look at it. When I first looked at this deck, I thought it was wonderful, I instantly loved the dualistic nature of each card. Then I looked at it some more. Kind of an almost science-fiction/fantasy look that I like… But even the soft cards had a rough edge to the imagery, everything was jagged, harsh; even the optimism carried a negative edge. I find Revelations Tarot too dark to work with. Horrid deck. I will not use it. It is negative, disguised as positive. Revelations Tarot is not a Dark Deck – it’s a negative deck. I have often said that dark decks do not necessarily produce dark readings. In a standard RWS deck, without looking at reversals, 25 of 78 cards have negative meanings. That’s 32%. We can get a very dark reading with a RWS! So why go dark? (adding in reversals brings Revelations to about a 100% negative card ratio). Same as why go light. Same as anything perhaps. Some folks like Picasso, some like Rembrandt. Art is art. Some like Viviani, some like Menegazzi. Tarot use is not limited to divination. There are meditative uses, pathworking, counseling…. Not everybody relates well to the same pictures. I could care less about Picasso with three breasts and two eyes on one side of the face – does nothing for me. Norman Rockwell does nothing for me. Imagine a Norman Rockwell tarot? Pathworking with a Rockwell Tarot? Too funny… But there’s also the sitter to consider. What do they perceive as Tarot imagery? I will never ever suggest using a dark deck on a sitter for their first sitting. That’s bad form. You may find you have trouble building rapport after you’ve assaulted their sensibilities by whipping our your Giger… Sitters have expectations when they come for a reading. In the west coast of the USA, the Swiss 1jj, David Palladini’s Aquarian Tarot, or a Waite-Colman Smith have instant recognition. Many ‘new age’ readers at fairs are moving to the Voyager and the Rohrig . It does not appear witchy or occult – it’s fuzzy…but remember the sitter…they sought out a card reader. Some sitters need to explore their dark side, and are unwilling to do so alone, a dark deck may help them see problems in a fresher light. Hmmmm but that does not really explain why I love the darkness. I’m obviously not a teen trying to rebel and shock my parents. Nor am I a parent trying to shock my teens (I'm childless). But let’s dig real deep. Let’s go where it’s real dark. Follow me. I love facing fear. I was afraid of heights, so I began jumping out of airplanes (until I had a major malfunction that resulted in hospitialization and use of metal bars and screw to hold me together) I was afraid of water, so I began white water rafting (until a near drowning incident)…my motto was, “Feel the Fear.” Facing fear quotes for fun: Robert Pirsig, “We always condemn most in others that which we most fear in ourselves.” “Love is a light that never dwelleth in a heart possessed by fear”--Baha'u'llah. “No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear.” Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) After all, courage is about managing your fears. See, there is nothing wrong with knowing fear, and I truly believe that we should face that which we fear. Bravery is acting in spite of your fears. Dark Decks do not glorify rape or murder. They give a powerful tool to explore the darkside in each of us – and bring it to light – to exterminate that which breeds in the dark. (What decks do glorify rape and murder?) “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” Frank Herbert – Dune. So we can work though our darkness, our fears…or become crippled. Which is positive? Which is negative? More importantly, which creates a positive future for all involved?

deranged_walrus	21 May 2005
I think that what's been needed to be said on the topic has been, very eloquently by Nevada, Umbrae, and others. Like Scion said, they did it better than I could have. I'm a 19 year old university student. My friends range in age from 18-23. I've found that the older ones are the least mature. One in particular stands out. He's a 21 year old hypocrite. He tells us younger ones that we "need to grow the f*** up and stop being such CHILDREN." In all reality, he is the one that clings to drama, whines EVERY SINGLE DAY about how hellishly horrible his life is, and is generally the token angsty teenager of the group. When I showed him Vargo's Gothic Tarot, he looked at me and said, "Aren't you a bit old for that?" This from the kid who joins us at the goth night at the local club every Saturday. He dresses in black clothes all the time, I wear what I want. He has black eyeliner and the stereotypical gothic accessories, I find it all too much of a hassle. He thinks he's obsessed with blood and biting, I find it's all for show. I presume it's "poser" people like that to whom you were directing your comments, Deanne? Yet I'm the "true goth" because I find the beauty in the grotesque. I LOVE looking at gargoyles and skulls and other things that society labels morbid. As has been said before me, decks like Vargo's and Giger and all have an aesthetic appeal to me. Even decks that depict rape and murder and horrors of human existence (of which I actually have yet to come across) I can appreciate for what they are: the truth, and lessons to be learned. How else are we going to prevent another holocaust if we don't physically see with our own eyes the proof of what happened? It's one thing to relish the sight, and want to see it so much that you go and create situations like it, just to take photos for your personal collection. I know that this is not what you meant when posting. The way I read your post, you were basically wondering why teenagers and seemingly "sheltered" individuals crave the scenes presented in stereotypical goth decks: Vargo, Vampires, etc. You wonder why they're so interested in seeing twisted, sick, perverted images? Think about it. Everyone has a morbid fascination with whatever. There's even a phrase: "It was like a car accident, you know you shouldn't look, but you can't help it. You just keep staring." Like they said, yin and yang. You have to know what's there in order to deal with it, rather than gloss over it and hope it goes away. If it makes it easier for you to deal with, jsut tell yourself, "It's not my problem. People will dwell on the negative, and how that works out for them is not my concern." Then move on with your life, and know that some of us do find beauty in "the dark."

mike gorth	21 May 2005
I agree with you deana, You must stay in the light. especially working with tarot and opening yourself up to the universe. Mike Gorth

Deana	21 May 2005
Wow, Umbrae, those were some gorgeous decks. Must get Tarot of the White Cats. And that Polish one was gorgeous. I have actually seen decks with deeply disturbing pictures (none of them were ones you posted) and when people ask for darkness, I was wondering why they would want some of these disturbing decks that I've seen online but not purchased. Decks that really did depict rape and murder, not necessarily at the same time. I'm not talking about decks that use dark colors like that gorgeous Polish one that I'm now drooling over. I agree that we can't ignore negativity and hope it goes away. I'm not saying let's all put our heads under the pillow and chant, "La la la la la" until we don't notice bad things in life. Also, I don't think "negative" cards should be removed from decks, if someone thought I was saying that. They are there for a reason, and why would you want to read with a deck that couldn't be honest? Sometimes the Tower means the World Trade Center is coming down and sometimes the Ten of Swords means a murder is actually going to happen. Usually they don't mean anything of the sort, but there do need to be cards in the deck that depict something bad coming up as well as cards that depict something good. If we just had decks with our ten favorite cards, they would be useless. The Tarot of the Dead is a good example of the Buffy effect. That's not darkness, that's humor. I don't have the Thoth or the Liber T, but I've heard that the Thoth is not dark and the Liber T is. They both look a bit surreal to me, which isn't my style, dark or not. But let's just take Aleister Crowley as an example because he's not actually on the boards to be flattered and preen. :) I always figured he was probably a genius, and also probably an upper middle class Victorian man who liked shocking people by being so "dark". But then I came across some of his poetry, and it did in fact glorify murder, it glorified rape, it glorified necrophilia and a few other things that are disturbing. Jeffrey Dahmer probably loved his poetry and appreciated it in a way most of us wouldn't. And reading his poetry, I realized that he was a genius, yes, but also quite likely a sociopath. He clearly had mental problems that went beyond enjoying the notoriety of being "bad." And when I read about a house he had wherein the people were doing heroin and living in their own feces until some of them died (including his own child) and the place had to be shut down because it was so unsanitary...well, that's not the sort of thing I'd like to focus on (and I realize the Thoth deck does not). But I have also seen a few decks which focus on things of just that sort, but the creators are alive and may be reading this forum so I don't want to single them out for personal criticism. I once heard a teenager say his neighborhood was boring because it never had any drive-by shootings. That's an example of someone whose life had been cushy and he imagined that violence is glamorous (he got over it when he served in Iraq).

Deana	21 May 2005
The Giger Tarot isn't showing up well on my laptop...with all the blacks and grays, all I can make out is the male part on the Lovers and a woman with a mask on Judgement. I can see that it doesn't look like my taste, but I can't see if it has images that glorify violence.

WolfyJames	21 May 2005
I'm afraid you're mixing things up. You cannot put together violence with darkness because they're not the same, same with evil and darkness, and rape and darkness. Darkness implies accepting life's hard facts which aren't pretty, darkness implies confronting and accepting who we really are, which isn't pretty. The problem in our world is that it is too fluffy bunny, too sugary and shallow, all time and energy spent on the surface. People are in complete denial of what is really going on within and without, and darkness is what they deny. Society has literarely eliminated aging and death. Notice how people are obsessed by youth and immortality now more than ever. If you have studied psychology a little, then you would know that aspects that are and yet are denied existence usually turn up sooner or later in a grotesque way, in order to be seen, hence our fascination for violence and death. Life is composed of two essential and good elements which are light and darkness. Life and the universe cannot be without the two, being well-balanced. That is the reason why I'm Wiccan, because to a Wiccan, these two aspects are holy and must be loved and accepted, within and without, and must be contantly kept in balance so that no element become more strong than the other. There is a difference between embracing darkness and self-pity. Darkness implies accepting life's hard facts which aren't pretty, darkness implies confronting and accepting who we really are, which isn't pretty. Darkness tells the truth while light is a liar and blinds you. Self-pity can be done in light or in darkness, I know many who are self-pity in light and it is as sickening as self-pity in darkness. As for having fun with darkness, it's not self-pity, it is fun, finding joy in darkness and enjoying it. I enjoy goth novels with vampires and other creatures of the Night, I enjoy writing such stories, darkness is beautiful. The Goth movement is not new, Romantics started it two centuries ago and we still enjoy the waves. There are some here who find fluffy bunnies decks horrible, one recently wrote that Hanson Roberts decks was making him/her sick, too much sycarine. Why not? Why is everyone obsessed with light? There is something that I want when I read, and generally in life, and it's the truth. Truth, by the way, is the darkest thing ever, the thing people are the most terrified after death. And this is what I want. I have what it takes to take it. Dark decks tend to tell you things sweet ones won't tell you, and it works well on people who can take it, and it can work well on people who learn to take it. Sooner or later, you have to confront the truth, within and without, which can only be found in darkness. It's only in troubles you know what you're really made of, what your friends and S.O. are made of. The rest of the time is just vain talking and illusions about yourself and others.

Moongold	22 May 2005
Fascinating discussion. Thanks particularly to Deana, Sentient, Nevada and Umbrae whose comments meant something unique in one way or another. That overview of dark decks was useful Umbrae. I could not use the Thoth at first it was what I called "dark". It evoked nausea in me actually. Now, I think it is a quite beautiful deck, and one of the most expressive to someone who now reads from the art, iconography and impressions. I reached this point by studying the cards, and feeling much more comfortable with the symbolism and the art work. Fear is a visceral response, unique and personal but it does not always come from darkness.

zombi00	22 May 2005
deranged_walrus wrote: Yet I'm the "true goth" because I find the beauty in the grotesque. I LOVE looking at gargoyles and skulls and other things that society labels morbid. i understand exactly what you are trying to say, errrr.... Walrus. my question to you, however, is how is a fascination with gargoyles, skulls and other such imagery any less cliche and stereotypical than the eye liner? simply because it is less tedious? i myself love dark imagery, that's why i'm working on my Dark Carnival deck. but i'd never fault or question anyone that liked using My Little Pony decks either. Potayto Potahto.

jmd	22 May 2005
I'm going to take Deana's opening post in one sense only, and disregard, for the purposes of the ensuing comments, the psychological senses of 'dark' as 'repressive' or 'unexpressed'. There are some decks I personally would not use for either readings or meditation, precisely because of an element in them that seems to reflect a far more negative impulse flowing through the deck. One may argue that in this I am perhaps being no more generous than certain more extreme born-again christians who see this in all decks... to which I would simply reply that, in my view, there is a difference between rejection without study, and developing the faculty of discernment, even if in the process one makes errors. It is those decks that appear to reflect such an impulse that I would personally avoid. In the same manner, I would not surround myself with the worse of any of humanity's strivings, but rather, whenever I can, its more sublime.

Lasiren	22 May 2005
When I think of "darkness," I don't think of rape or murder: those, to me are aggression. "Darkness" has a slightly different meaning for me: it's what I have trouble understanding in life, things that are behind veils. Sometimes it's a bit wilder or more savage than the average experience, but if the shoe fits... The deck I am using right now is the Vampire tarot. I didn't buy it because I want to be spooky and use a dark deck that will give me dark readings. I bought it because something about it indicated that that particular deck would heighten my understanding of my readings. The deck and I work well together: I find that it's a well-temepered and insightful deck, one that speaks to my person in a manner that works better than some of the more common decks. Not all of us who feel intrinsicly pulled ever so slightly to the darker side of things have cushy lives, or are looking for the wrong kind of excitement to liven them up: My life, while short, has been fairly turbulent, and I'm grateful for any sort of break I can catch. My health is consistently bad, and I live with three legitimate phobias that I have actually altered my life in various ways to accomodate them. My "darker" decks help me deal with these things in a way some of the "lighter" ones can't. We all like to hear "hang in there, you'll be okay". It's very comforting and it's that kind of support, from the people around us and our tarot decks, that enables us to get through hard times. But I turn to my Vampires when I want answers. "This is what's going on. This is what you fear. And this is how you fight it." On the other hand, it's a matter of artistic/aesthetic preferences. Different people will want different appearances in a deck: I know my taste is all across the board. Vampires, Golden, Winged Spirit, Crystal...on and on it goes.

Mesara	22 May 2005
One person's trash is another's treasure... I myself tend to have a similar aversion to *light* decks, but I do not subscribe to *dark* decks either.. However, it is all subjective.. Where some would use the word "dark" to describe a deck, I might prefer the term "abstract", or "dreamy".. and vice versa. Reactions to decks vary from person to person. .some people are quite comfortable exploring dark realms.. while others prefer to remain in the lighter regions.. Neither approach puts one group above the other. The practice of exploring *dark* tarots does not by itself make a reader more advanced or knowledgable of the human condition, nor does it implicate an obsession with darkness and "the grotesque".. But I think a good argument for such decks is that they ilicit a very visceral response.. sometimes that can be positive, depending on the nature of the reading.

Rogan	22 May 2005
This is a very interesting subject... Personally, I own the Rider Waite and the New Vision - And Im waiting for my Baphomet/Giger to arrive in the mail... I can't wait for it... I mainly work with a two deck spread - Using the majors from the second deck to focus on what the querent is blocking, using negatively or what needs to be wary of - And so, in that case, the Baphomet is perfect, because it's the shadow side, and it helps illustrate the cause better... BUT - I bumped into a girl in a shop Ive never been into yesturday, and she asked me if I was shopping for cards as a gift, to which I replied "No, I read myself..." She then went on to tell me all about her decks - The Mermaids... The Unicorns blah blah blah - She was all "Yeah, they have a beautiful energy, and they give great positive and happy readings..." And as I was driving home - I thought "Well... that's all good and well... but how do the pretty unicorns and the fluffy kittens give you feedback on negative aspects?..." Im just talking personally... (and perhaps its why Im not drawn to picture decks) ... But just personally, I dont think "The Happy Smiling Kitten reversed" is going to give me the insight I want... Just my two cents - People react and connect with different things.

Shadowlynx	22 May 2005
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Deana	22 May 2005
It's funny that Wicca was mentioned in this thread because surely anyone involved in Wicca has noticed exactly what I'm talking about! The influx, most noticeably in the past three or so years, of Fluffy Dark Bunnies. People who are just learning magick, but gosh darn it, they will curse if they feel like it. People who don't need no wimpy Rede. People who hate things that are light (even important things in their own religion like the full moon rather than the dark moon or the four Sabbats of spring and summer). People who think it's weak to worship a goddes of mercy like Kwan Yin; they need the most blood-thirsty ancient deities they can find. Deities whose actual worshippers commited actual sacrifices. They are not representative of Wicca as a whole; not even close. But they are a rather new and noticeably vocal subset. And from what I have seen of them they are *exactly* what I was talking about from my first post. Many of them *are* bored teenagers who want to shock people. Unfortunate numbers of them are adults who are stunted in maturity. And the more they focus on negativity, the more they have negativity to focus on. Now so-and-so is attacking them on the astral plane and they need to kick some astral butt. Now they have to curse their idiot neighbor, blah, blah, blah. And the more they focus on how powerful they are, how they love getting all these "dark powers", the more their *actual lives* are falling apart. Anything from suddenly failing grades to severe financial problems to divorce to losing their kids in custody battles. They keep focusing on "dark powers" and their lives are being destroyed while they feel some sort of rush from all the negative energy. People like that are certainly not what Wicca was intended to be, not what it has the potential to be, and not what the vast majority of Wiccans want their religion to be. But yes, that's a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about.

Kiama	22 May 2005
Deana, Could it not simply be that some people use what you call "dark" decks because they like them? They find their artwork attractive? And so they read with them... But they read in such a way that they don't just see the cards in front of them... They also see other decks they may have used, they see myths and legends, symbolism, stuff other people on the forums have said about the cards... And so, they see a "dark" deck's card, but they can easily get a non"dark" reading. They just happen to respond better to Gothic artwork. And please, nobody say one can judge artwork and aesthetics objectively. Please. Also, you ask how one can use a deck that depicts rape and murder, and my first response was... "Uh, 10 of Swords? 5 of Swords? 7 of Swords? the Devil?" There are plenty of "dark" cards in the "normal" Tarot deck... Just look at that 10 of Swords! There's a guy filled with cold steel blades, his blood dripping and pooling around him, whilst he lies face-down in the mud. So, your complaint about "dark" decks could easily be extrapolated to the "normal" Tarot deck, which is not a conclusion anybody would be happy with. On your above post about Wicca... Just to add something in case you were generalizaing too much. Just because one doesn't use the Rede, doesn't mean one is a "dark fluffy bunny". Some people just don't feel that the Harm None ethic is viable, and others don't believe the Law of Threefold return works at all - me for one. Some people also turn away from 'light' deities for a while because they need to spiritually work through their 'dark' side, or learn to deal with it and cope with it, or learn to harness their 'dark' energies in an effective way. And thus, they devote themselves to Kali, the Morrigan, Loki, Lucifer, etc, whilst doing this. Later on, they may work extensively with Kwan Yin, or Lugh, or Brighid (though anybody that says She is 'nice' really doesn't understand Her, in my opinion!) I also find the polarity of 'dark' and 'light' very weak... I hate Derrida, but agree with his Logic of Supplementarity, which says that the binaries we live by often assume that there is one in the pair that is 'better' or 'more natural' than the other, and the latter is just derivative of the former. Whereas Derrida shows through his extensive work that actually, it is this latter 'weaker' and 'less natural' one that is often the originator of the second, and that the second depends upon it greatly. In "Of Grammatology" he explores this idea with the binary of "speech" and "writing". Facinating stuff. Kiama

Deana	22 May 2005
Kiama, Someone who balances light with dark is not what I'm talking about. That's the point of Wicca, in a way. Working with dark deities to balance the light is not the same as announcing the light wimpy. And thinking through an ethical statement and deciding it's not viable is not the same thing as deciding you'll curse anyone you darn well please. Also, I was saying above that there *are* dark cards in any good deck. You need to know if a bad situation is coming up: that's why you're doing a reading in the first place. I'm talking about focusing on the negative to the exclusion of the positive. If you don't do that, then you aren't who I was talking about. Am I living in an alternate reality here? Does no one see the sorts of people I'm referring to? They do exist. If no one here fits that description and no one knows anyone who fits that description: Great! But I'm not imagining the existence of such a subgroup, and I do consider many of them Fluffy Dark Bunnies.

Cerulean	22 May 2005
First, please understand I do not recommend nor intend to pursuade you my tastes and path are right for everyone. Not everyone is wired to handle literature or art such as Dante Algheri's Divine Comedy or studying different styles of tarots. If you want lightish and brighter tarots with hope and gentleness, that is your balance. If you see pain and suffering in the Liber-T and Alexandar Crowley-influenced decks, than your wiring and your inner eyes see different things from mine. That is my understanding and thought of this style of subject--I hope that I have not misjudged those who do not like 'darker' literature or darker decks. My opinion of such 'dark' decks and literature follow. Actually, I define dark decks as ones that have more of a nightscape--not nightmarish landscape, but a darker edge to their scenes. This might include intensified coloration and heightened sense of emotion. They deal with aspects of a soul's humanity that will have survived or been affected by many horrors. These include the Dante Tarot and Liber-T by Andrea Serio and they are called dark. They pull up from literary or writings and art from Dante Algheri and inspired by Alexander Crowley. My own filters liked Dante Algheri--he predated the worst decades of the Black Death, but his collective writings reflect in allegory something that tarot emphasizes for me. The weariness, shame, tiredness, heart and finally emotional and spiritual recovery of life experience from hunger and banishment to a kind of acceptance and even, to hope of redemption to the end of a soul's journey. It turns out I picked a teacher and study group that would also emphasize these aspects as we read through the Divine Comedy one summer. To me, those were glorious study nights. People believe the darkness surrounding the Divine Comedy can make it too intense for reading. There's quite a few flaws in the biases of Dante Algheri and he does reflect his time. But I do believe his work is worth reading-for me. I do believe the tarot that I like based collectively on a modern interpretation of Dante literature is worth having for myself. I don't recommend this 'dark' aspect of literature if your energy is too sensitive to handle it--or you cannot see the value of such things. I don't want to suggest that reading literature that will affect depressive personality aspects or trigger your survival of pain. I am still studying aspects of the Thoth and Liber-T. My filters do not see horror or malicious things in the Revelations Tarot. I understand that the view of those who see other things in the above decks do not wish to study or understand these decks--these decks do not feel, appeal or help such people. In all gentleness, I feel if such things feel so bad to you--than hopefully, my softest words can be, "I will try not to hurt your feelings when speaking of them." My best regards to all concerned--I am not horrified by the above tarots. Sincerely, Cerulean

ros	22 May 2005
After reading about the darkness, I think I'll try a deck. I don't have any dark or dark coloured decks. I agree that it is good to learn about darkness if we can handle what we find. If we really don't want to know, we shouldn't go there. Fear is only negative Faith & Doubt steps in when Faith disappears. So, I Doubt if I'll be able to read with a dark deck for a while, but I'll learn about my fears with the Faith that all will be well with the learning! Thanks for the thread!!!

Umbrae	22 May 2005
Deana wrote: …Decks that really did depict rape and murder, not necessarily at the same time. …It's funny that Wicca was mentioned in this thread because surely anyone involved in Wicca has noticed exactly what I'm talking about! The influx, most noticeably in the past three or so years, of Fluffy Dark Bunnies. Am I living in an alternate reality here?… …But I'm not imagining the existence of such a subgroup, and I do consider many of them Fluffy Dark Bunnies. Please help us help you. Please provide names of the decks you are referring to, URL’s of websites…anything…. Enough with the opinions and rhetoric – show me what you are talking about! :smoker: You know, you cannot shine the light into the darkness from afar…ya gotta go there

Moongold	22 May 2005
This is not really a dark deck by the criteria outlined here, but it's fairly confronting on lots of levels. This is the worst V Swords I've ever seen.

Mesara	22 May 2005
Deana wrote: Am I living in an alternate reality here? Does no one see the sorts of people I'm referring to? They do exist. If no one here fits that description and no one knows anyone who fits that description: Great! But I'm not imagining the existence of such a subgroup, and I do consider many of them Fluffy Dark Bunnies. No, you are not living in an alternative reality- that subgroup definately does exist- just not here in these forums, or at least not in substantial numbers. I think I can say with some measure of confidence that our members here who have an affinity towards "dark" decks do not deserve to be grouped in with that particular association of people/wiccans you are speaking out against. (Im not sure if this was your intention, but based on some of the responses I think a few perceived that it was) Those angsty individuals who use tarot/wicca/whatever to be shocking, rebellious, sinister, *dark*, evil, etc etc generally pose little threat to the tarot/wiccan communities. They never last long (in my experience at least) because it never provides them with the identity and/or shock value they were expecting. I laugh when I think how dissappointing it must be for these people when they eventually learn that tarot is anything but evil.. It loses it's luster and thus becomes "boring"..usually things like tarot require way more study than these people are willing to put into it..they want a quick fix, not a lifetime of study and contemplation..and so they drop it. There is no question that there are decks out there that are a devastating perversion to tarot, I think Firemaiden mentioned one such deck and I am thinking of another..maybe the same one. I doubt that any serious tarot student would use these..but these decks thankfully are rare, typically unpublished..no respected publisher like US Games or Lo Scarebo would even touch them.

Nevada	22 May 2005
Deana wrote: Many of them *are* bored teenagers who want to shock people. Unfortunate numbers of them are adults who are stunted in maturity. I know it can be irritating, but hasn't this been true in every generation? Often it is for shock value. Every generation has its little--or big--rebellion against adult conventions. When you're growing up, searching for your own identity and how you fit into the world, when you're in the transition between childhood and adulthood, it's natural. There have always been adults, too, who seem to want to act like teenagers. I remember middle-aged women in the shortest mini-skirts or halter tops, dressing like their teenage daughters who were my age. So it still happens. Maybe their lives have become stagnated and they need to shake things up a little. As Thomas Jefferson said, "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing." I wouldn't assume boredom, though. I don't believe true boredom exists all that much in the world. It's possible it's something deeper that they don't know how to articulate. You mentioned earlier a teenager wishing there were drive by shootings where he lived, then later having to go to war in Iraq. It made me wonder if, on some level he didn't know earlier on that he'd need to face war. Knowing something like that might be inevitable it's possible he wished he was better prepared, and that came out as this shocking statement. Maybe he was bored, naive. Sometimes being sheltered isn't exactly a blessing, if it doesn't prepare one for the cruelties of life. In tribal societies young people go through initiations, visions quests, and so forth. We don't provide these experiences in our culture, so they look for their own. We preach "zero-tolerance" and they go out and do what comes naturally. Who's more in touch with themselves? I've seen optimism taken to such an extreme that it blocked out warning signs or red flags, blinding people to something they needed to know. Cries for help being ignored. Either extreme of focus, positive or negative, can be dangerous. But it can also be a healthy sign of searching. The true need is to look, and to see clearly. And sometimes just to let be. Nevada

Umbrae	22 May 2005
Mesara wrote: There is no question that there are decks out there that are a devastating perversion to tarot, I think Firemaiden mentioned one such deck and I am thinking of another..maybe the same one. I need to repeat myself here: Deana wrote: …Decks that really did depict rape and murder, not necessarily at the same time. …It's funny that Wicca was mentioned in this thread because surely anyone involved in Wicca has noticed exactly what I'm talking about! The influx, most noticeably in the past three or so years, of Fluffy Dark Bunnies. Am I living in an alternate reality here?… …But I'm not imagining the existence of such a subgroup, and I do consider many of them Fluffy Dark Bunnies. Please help us help you. Please provide names of the decks you are referring to, URL’s of websites…anything…. Right now, there are opinions and rhetoric – back on Page 3 I put some time and effort into discussing various Dark Decks. All I ask is, show me a published tarot (not somebody’s pipe-dream 6th grader web-page), where the deck – not just one card – glorifies man’s inhumanity to man. don't knee-jerk opinion...show me.

Fudugazi	22 May 2005
I've been reading this thread with interest. I have my own issues with darkness, but I am working though them at the moment. Dark decks do help. I just want to react to something Nevada just wrote: Nevada wrote: In tribal societies young people go through initiations, visions quests, and so forth. We don't provide these experiences in our culture, so they look for their own. We preach "zero-tolerance" and they go out and do what comes naturally. Who's more in touch with themselves? This is so true! Initiations can be very difficult - and all take the form of facing and going through fear, of seeking out the Shadow, of meeting spirits, and often, of a dangerous solitary feat, like killing a dangerous animal with a spear or walking alone across a desert, living off its meagre offerings. Even our non-tribal ancestors - a hundred years or so ago - had rites of passage that included some of this stuff in some way or another. Now, little by little, rites of passage are being made illegal, being branded barbaric. Blood rites are universal and as old as human beings. When they are controlled by society they are limited, symbolic and ritualistic. When they are not - when they are pushed out of the pale - well, we know what happens. Buying a dark deck is the least of it. We wonder why boys and girls seek out their own rites of passage, their own encounter with the blood rites? We wonder why, when they are given guns and sent to war, some of them can end up behaving like criminals? We wonder about bullying in school, about crime? There is no wonder. When you push something away that should happen, it comes back in perverted form.

Moongold	22 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: We wonder why boys and girls seek out their own rites of passage, their own encounter with the blood rites? We wonder why, when they are given guns and sent to war, some of them can end up behaving like criminals? We wonder about bullying in school, about crime? There is no wonder. When you push something away that should happen, it comes back in perverted form. There are, and never have been, uniform rites of passage and I wonder whether that is too simple an analysis, Helvetica. In terms of social processes, however, Professor Ian Turner in the 1970's argued that Australian Rules Football rituals were an effective replacement for the impact of tha gladiator sports of the Romans in that they allow the collective vicarious experience of violence. The point is should and would these experiences remain vicarious as they always are in civilized society or is there some other way of subduing the beast within? When one looks at some of the paintings in our art galleries and some of the routine pictures on the daily news, a few odd Tarot cards don't hurt, I guess.

Deana	22 May 2005
A tiny pinch of intuition led me (too late) to a dictionary, where I looked up the word "umbrae". I did not mean this thread as a personal attack on you and would not have posted it if I knew that darkness was an integral part of your personal identity. We clearly aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this issue now or in the future. We are completely different people with vastly incompatible viewpoints. I apologize if you felt singled out for personal attack. I respect you as a Tarot reader as well as an intelligent person even though we aren't going to agree on this topic. Deana, who prefers to focus on the positive but didn't mean to hurt anyone (I'm going to go watch Winnie the Pooh or something after this thread. I don't want to look at dark Tarot decks and decide which are the most gruesome. I want to look at a Bear of Very Little Brain eating honey. I *like* honey.)

firemaiden	22 May 2005
Deanna, take heart -- disagreement is a wonderful opportunity. When people disagree on something, I think Halleluja, I am going to learn something, or at least a fruitful conversation will happen. As I have said before, your questions are most interesting, and have led us to a fascinating discussion about what darkness is, what it can be useful for, the role of darkness in art, where darkness exists in tarot already, etc. I do not see anyone being or feeling attacked here, and I do not think incompatible viewpoints means two people cannot continue a conversation. I liked your questions, which I did not see as merely rhetorical -- but rather the expression of an honest attempt to understand. I too was curious to understand the appeal of dark decks, see, we all benefit from your question, and thanks to the many posts here from those who have explored the dark side a bit, I do understand a little better. (Sorry, I cannot provide a link to the evil deck I had in question because number one I can't find it, and number two, I don't wish to bring any publicity or traffic to the bizarre site I am thinking of).

deranged_walrus	22 May 2005
Deana wrote: Deana, who prefers to focus on the positive but didn't mean to hurt anyone (I'm going to go watch Winnie the Pooh or something after this thread. I don't want to look at dark Tarot decks and decide which are the most gruesome. I want to look at a Bear of Very Little Brain eating honey. I *like* honey.) In all honesty, I liked that you posted this question. It gives me a little bit of joy to know that some people out there ARE aware of the negative, yet choose to focus on the positive. Like I said, I am all too often surrounded by "wanna-be angsty teenagers rebelling against societal norms by pretending to be deep via brooding over death and gore." It disheartened me to know that they and their lack of direction are the future of our world. But so are you, and you seem to have things balanced and well thought out. Acknowledge and accept the negative, but don't dwell. I look forward to your next post, whether it's about this or another topic :) Discussion does bring insight and new ways to look at things. And I like honey, too! I had a Winnie the Pooh stuffed animal as a child. It made me happy.

Mesara	22 May 2005
Umbrae- I can't find a link to mine either, Ive been searching for it all day. All I will say about it is that it involved "furries", and it is, to my knowledge, unpublished.

jumptothemoonyea	23 May 2005
To join my voice to this fascinating battle between light and dark...:D Darkness was the source from which light was born.... exploring darkness is looking for the origin... P.S. personally, I could never understand masterpieces of 'dark' art like this one by Hieronymous Bosch http://www.artchive.com/artchive/b/bosch/delightr.jpg (click on the box with arrows at the bottom of the picture to enlarge it) though many people do like them

Fudugazi	23 May 2005
Moongold wrote: There are, and never have been, uniform rites of passage and I wonder whether that is too simple an analysis Who talks of them being uniform? but there have always been rites of passage and most of them have an element - often an important one - of darkness. Does Winnie the Pooh preclude darkness? (without darkness, indeed, how to enjoy Winnie the Pooh?) Isn't there a difference to be drawn between wallowing in darkness and appreciation of chiaroscuro?

Nevada	23 May 2005
firemaiden wrote: When people disagree on something, I think Halleluja, I am going to learn something, or at least a fruitful conversation will happen. As I have said before, your questions are most interesting, and have led us to a fascinating discussion about what darkness is, what it can be useful for, the role of darkness in art, where darkness exists in tarot already, etc. I'm a Libra who loves a spirited discussion, though some who know me just call me argumentative. I recall an interview of Katharine Hepburn in which she told how she grew up in a home where arguments were encouraged over the dinner table. I wished I'd grown up with her when I heard that. That said, there are times and places when I want to be left alone with my opinions, my feelings, my way of thinking. Each has a right to this, I believe. Deana, I hope my arguments didn't offend you. I fully support anyone's choice to work only on the lighter side of things. It's a choice, that's all. In Kate's own words: "You cannot change the music of your soul." I like honey too. :) Nevada

MeeWah	23 May 2005
Not read through this lengthy thread yet but shall after I post. The fascination with darkness may be likened to the same fascination with the other side of the coin. Duality a part of human nature so that not of "the light" (in a general sense rather than the spiritual), the usual or the conventional can have an equal push/pull on the interest. It is the difference between sun & clouds. It can also reflect curiosity regarding the unknown--that beyond the known or familiar parameters that resides as if in the shadows without the clarity of the known or the familiar. It is the difference between Vanilla and Chocolate. Personally, it is related to learning to think out of the box. As a means of providing a different angle with which to approach & look at things. It is the horse of a different colour. For example: I use The Vertigo Tarot more for its differences from the traditional or the reality-based imagery rather than its apparent "dark" look. Its abstract qualities encourages free association & tangents not always available.

Shadowlynx	23 May 2005
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jmd	23 May 2005
Can the analogy of a black hole in the centre of a galaxy be used in the same manner as what is meant for a 'dark deck'? Personally, I would consider that the two are rather even symbolically different. An astronomical black hole contains within itself light that cannot escape due to gravitational constraints. The sense of a 'dark deck' that I read in this thread seems more, in intent, the expression of not only 'absence of light' (quite distinct, then, to a black hole), but also as 'manifesting or depicting evil qualities' (leaving that term 'evil' un-characterised for now). Of course, it is another step, and one huge leap, to ascertain whether the 'darkness' depicted and understood in the myriad ways we understand it is so depicted upon a deck. For some, the word seems to suggest, rather, an intensity reflecting elements of psychologically repressed impulses. For others (such as myself), the term suggests that at work within the artist's brushstrokes is evil genius. As mentioned, and however defined, I prefer to step towards the sublime, than to behold and ponder the genius working in such manner. This does not mean avoiding one's fears, or of denying the numerous difficult situations (and traggic ones) that others face, but rather at beholding the human spark of light even there. The question can of course as well be asked of what some have called 'fluffy bunny' decks... but that is not addressing the issue, but rather stating that there are other decks that seem without substance.

Shadowlynx	23 May 2005
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Eco74	23 May 2005
Not having read all the answers, I just have a brief comment to explain how I see it. Dark decks give me a different perspective, no more, no less. The different decks I have all have different styles and 'feels' to them, which makes the reading illuminated in different light depending on the deck I use. This does not mean that a dark deck (I think the Fantastical is my darkest) can not give bright and sunny readings, but the darkness in the images (the mulled colors, the muted light, the eery atmosphere) does give a view from the shadow-side of things in most cases. A lighter deck (Hanson-Roberts for example) is more prone to give a reading from the bright-and-sunny side of things just through the artwork being so different. I wouldn't use a deck to make sure the reading comes out darker or lighter, but do choose decks based on the question and if it seems some things are hiding in the shadows, a dark deck might be a better option for showing these things off. Sometimes without having to drag them into the light. Tarocco delle Vetrate can also be a good deck to use for shadow-type readings in my opinion, but isn't what traditionally would be seen as a dark deck. Basically it's more to do with the perspective I want to explore for the question than it has to do with what I want from the reading. The choice of deck sets the startingpoint and where it ends up is for the cards to decide.

Qofcups	23 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: Does Winnie the Pooh preclude darkness? ( Isn't there a difference to be drawn between wallowing in darkness and appreciation of chiaroscuro? I may be completely off topic here, I apologise if that is the case. But, would you consider addiction darkness, because if that is the case, than I think Winnie the Pooh's obsession with honey is the dark side of Pooh Bear. It is honey that gets him stuck in a Rabbit hole, stung by bees, caught in his own heffelump trap. Of course there is darkness in THe Hundred Acre Wood, all great children's literature contains darkness. Unfortunately, the current trend is to censor it all out. I love this topic. I never really thought much about darkness and most of the darkness I've experienced have been surrounded by self-created drama. I lived a cushy life and sought drama and darkness as a teen and early 20-something. Today I find myself very weak in situations involving real drama (regardless of how minute). The point about the Rites of Passage in other cultures is really making me think. How do we give our children constructive ways to deal with darkness that will actually help them grow to be functional adults? I don't think the fake obsession with what Deana refers to as Fluffy Bunny Darkness is helpful, but darkness does exist and when teenagers suffer through their dark periods (or angst as we call it) we should probably be helping them understand it rather than blowing it off as immaturity and making them feel as if it isn't valid. Literature and story telling seems to be the only way I can think of right now, but is that enough?

Indigo Rose	24 May 2005
Deana wrote: Am I living in an alternate reality here? Does no one see the sorts of people I'm referring to? They do exist. If no one here fits that description and no one knows anyone who fits that description: Great! But I'm not imagining the existence of such a subgroup, and I do consider many of them Fluffy Dark Bunnies. In your defense, no you are not living in an alternate reality. People who play with darkness and "evil" exist, and I too have noticed a pull towards darkness among the youth. I will agree with you that I have seen spoiled kids flirting with darkness to create drama and excitement; not fully realizing what horrors truly constitute darkness. This is not new, but seems ever increasing IMHO. As it has already been argued here, the definition of what constitues darkness is subjective. However, clearly from a social perspective we all can agree on basic things that are dark: i.e. murder, abuse, rape, and anything that brings harm to people and animals. I believe most civilized people regardless of religion or nationality can agree that those things are dark. To me working with decks that have a focus on darkness, or are born from creators who traffic in darkness(i.e. Crowley) is counter productive. I don't come to the Tarot to get in touch with the darkness. I come to the Tarot as a connection to the Light(the Creator) in hopes that I may gain insight and wisdom in navigating through the darkness(much like the lamp of the Hermit in the RWS/clone decks.) The old saying, "You are what you eat" can certainly be applied to our minds and what we feed them. A steady diet of darkness will NOT create a healthy mind motivated to walk in the light! For some of us it doesn't even have to be a steady diet. Just like some people can eat as much junk as they want and never gain an ounce, while others blow up like a blow fish with even small indulgences, we are NOT all created equal. My mind, my spirit, my psyche can not handle mega doses of darkness, dark thinking, dark movies, dark decks, the news.......you get my point. Do I watch dark movies, shows, etc from time to time? Yes. I would be a hypocrite if I said otherwise. However, this is not my constant diet. I take it in small doses, and when I am in a strong frame of mind. Does this make me limited? No I don't believe it does. Delving into darkness and hanging around in the thick of it doesn't make one "deeper" or more intuitive; it just makes one focused on darkness. Light and darkness are always with us. We choose what we want to gravitate towards. The problem with feeding on a steady diet of darkness: One becomes comfortable living there. Guess who commits murder, rape, abuse, and the like? People who are living in darkness. Are we all capable of living there? Yes. It is a choice. I prefer the light. Blessings, Indigo Rose :)

Emeraldgirl	24 May 2005
I have quite a few different decks with quite a few different styles on them. Some of the nice pretty decks can have quite disturbing images on them such as the 10 of swords in the Buckland Romany Deck the dead guy gives me the creeps but the suit of cups is all rainbows. It's a mixture of of the good and bad times that anyone can face in their lives. I have had my share of bad times and truma in the past but that is where it is and where it stays until I need to draw strength from those times. I am still unclear as to what decks exactly you are referring to Deana but the world is a strange place and it takes all kinds to make it work. Sometimes images and events that inspire horror in us have the purpose of pulling us up out of complacency and forcing change on society as a whole to ensure that horrors of the past aren't repeated. I agree that I do not like to look upon images of rape, murder, bloodshed and a whole load of other acts commited by people however I can't disallow otherd from looking at the images. I do not understand the desire to see some of those things indeed although I have had a form of aversion therapy in which people who have had crimes committed against them (and I think perps to) are encouraged to face images of those sorts of crimes and therefore understand the horror of the crime but also that they are not the only ones who have experienced it. It can be healing to face the horror of a situation and accept it and move on. I think that also some people just have a facination with things that people don't understand. I can't understand my partner's and my brother's obession with cars but they don't get mine with tarot. As long as people don't hurt each other then they are free to look at what they want and if it offends people (as I know some religious groups are offended by tarot readers) then we all have the choice to just not look.

Eco74	24 May 2005
Qofcups wrote: The point about the Rites of Passage in other cultures is really making me think. How do we give our children constructive ways to deal with darkness that will actually help them grow to be functional adults? I don't think the fake obsession with what Deana refers to as Fluffy Bunny Darkness is helpful, but darkness does exist and when teenagers suffer through their dark periods (or angst as we call it) we should probably be helping them understand it rather than blowing it off as immaturity and making them feel as if it isn't valid. Literature and story telling seems to be the only way I can think of right now, but is that enough? This is a really good thought. I find that society is discovering that more and more young people aswell as adults are finding it difficult to deal with the world, but as for handling it not much is happening. The standard recommendations are therapy and medication, both indicating that the fear or angst is something wrong and should not be there, so as opposed to learning to handle the darkness as a part of themselves, the people who do fall into these traps find themselves increasingly separated in learning that this alternate side of themselves has to be repressed and removed. I've found that I'm much happier after having embraced the more negative parts of myself, and my depressive periods (albeit brief) have not turned up in the last few years since I've started listening to my "darker moods" instead of trying to push them away and reject them as something "faulty" as it would mostly be described if I were to tell the "wrong people" about it. It is a part of me, just as pooh-bears honey-addiction is part of him, and if he can embrace something that keeps getting him into trouble like that, surely I can embrace something that gives me a different perspective in life.

Kiama	24 May 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: To me working with decks that have a focus on darkness, or are born from creators who traffic in darkness(i.e. Crowley) is counter productive. I don't come to the Tarot to get in touch with the darkness. I come to the Tarot as a connection to the Light(the Creator) in hopes that I may gain insight and wisdom in navigating through the darkness(much like the lamp of the Hermit in the RWS/clone decks.) Firstly, I respect everybody's opinions, but I really feel the need to disagree here. Mainly because I don't think Crowley 'trafficked in darkness' at all - and I do honestly feel that anybody who thinks he did is ignoring a large part of his philosophy - a philosophy that, if it had not been created, would have left the Tarot world and the Pagan world a lot poorer. Who was it that said "Every man and every woman is a star"? Who was it that said "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; Love is the Law, Love under Will."? Who is it that brought into being the idea which has been taken up by many modern Wiccans in reference to their Goddess: "And nor do I demand ought in sacrifice"? Who was it that contributed so much to getting the Court Cards out of a medieval mindset, and making them something more? Secondly, I feel that the Creator created BOTH light and dark, and that if I want to get in touch with the Creator, I need to understand both polarities. If I understand darkness, I can guard against the extreme of it, and I know how to respond to it. If I understand, for instance, how a serial killer thinks, I may be able to get to him before he kills again (assuming I was in the FBI or something - which I'm not.) If I understand addiction, I myself can guard against it, and I can do something more to help those who are trapped by it. Thirdly and finally, I really don't see how somebody using the Vampire Tarot, or the Thoth Tarot, or some other 'dark deck' means they are wallowing in darkness or moving away from the light. As I said before, in a comment that was ignored, could it not be that some people use 'dark decks' because the artwork appeals to them? And that when they read with them, they don't just see that one deck before them: they also see, in their mind's eye, other decks they have used, things people have said about the cards, myths, legends, symbols, etc, that add to the interpretation. In other words, they don't just read 'darkness and more darkness'. They read in a balanced way because they don't just interpret the images that are in front of them, but instead the plethora of ideas that come into their heads when they see '10 of Cups' before them... This may sound a bit like a rant, and I suppose it is. I just think that people are assuming too much about what constitutes 'dark' in the first place, and what it means to use a 'dark' deck. Just for the record though - I use the Robin Wood deck. Not a 'dark' deck, most would say. But I am partial to the Thoth as well. :D Kiama

WolfyJames	24 May 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: As it has already been argued here, the definition of what constitues darkness is subjective. However, clearly from a social perspective we all can agree on basic things that are dark: i.e. murder, abuse, rape, and anything that brings harm to people and animals. I believe most civilized people regardless of religion or nationality can agree that those things are dark. Life is violence. Nature is violence. Human is a very dangerous animal, there are reasons why it's at the top of the food chain, and no, it has nothing to do with darkness. Indigo Rose wrote: The problem with feeding on a steady diet of darkness: One becomes comfortable living there. Guess who commits murder, rape, abuse, and the like? People who are living in darkness. Are we all capable of living there? Yes. It is a choice. Living in darkness does not make one commit murders, more than the others. One living in the blinding light of denial though can commit horrible crimes. One here even mentionned some study done with people dealing with authority. I studied a bit of psychology and we did read this case. It did happen. People, told by the authority, gave mortal electric shocks. Luckyly for everyone, there was no one at the receiving end. Were these people dwelling in darkness? Absolutely not! And yet, put them in any moment of history and they must have blindly killed thousands of people without asking questions. That how's the Germans eliminated millions of people, they followed orders. Even you would crack under the pression even though you are under the illusion that you wouldn't hurt a fly. Frankly, given the circomstances, the timing and place, you could do to someone else's the most horrible things ever. Everyone can. Are you dwelling in darkness? There is also another study which used students. For a while, half of them became prison guardians and the others prisonners. Do you have any idea of the things the students, as prison guardians did to the "prisonners"? Horrible things: torture, humiliations, etc. Don't tell me they were are dwelling in darkness before they participated in the study. They were average people like anyone you can find in the street. Beside, studies show that serious murders and rapists are not a bunch of goth dressed in black, on the contrary, they're the kind of guy your mother would like you to get. You should read Nocturnal Witchcraft by Konstantinos. He does a good job of explaining darkness and light (both good) and good and evil. he even made a chart: .................................Good ......Good-Light..........................Good-Darkness Light........................................................Darkness ......Evil-Light.............................Evil-Darkness ................................Evil As you can see, Evil-Light is there, which is true, Light can be Evil, or should I say, evil can be found in light as much as in darkness. So the idea that only people who dwell in darkness can commit horrible acts is not true.

Chronata	24 May 2005
This has been a very fascinating thread. I don't normally respond to these, since I really can see both sides of this. Yes, I agree with you, Deana...in that there are people who seem to embrace darkness in images of violence. And I do wonder sometimes why. I think they are young, and perhaps inexperienciened in real darkness...that is to say ...real violence. The fluffy dark ones...yeah...I know them. They, for the most part, come from nice suburbia, and want to rebel and shock people into thinking that they have more knowledge of the the world than they actually do. Some of them associate darkness with the maturity they crave. But then I thought of others...some teens in my experience who embrace darkness and violence... And many of them have come from abusive households, hiding thier histories...but drawn to violence and darkness in a way to understand or cope with the nasty thoughts that dwell inside them. On the other side....I understand, and believe in many of the views already posted. As I said, I wasn't going to add anything else, because both Nevada and Scion said much of what was already in my mind to post. And I thought...hmmmm....I like to understand my own darkness...and yet I don't really own any decks that might be considered dark. And then...as I read this quote...I was reminded that actually, I do own and use a deck that I consider rather dark. Umbrae wrote: All I ask is, show me a published tarot (not somebody’s pipe-dream 6th grader web-page), where the deck – not just one card – glorifies man’s inhumanity to man. Well, OKay...it's not the entire deck...but because of the nature of the minors...being all one scene...there is a couple of images in the cards that make me think of man's inhumanity to man. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/tarot-iii-millennium/ Does it glorify it? I don't think that's quite the right term, because it's not really that graphic....but there have been times, when my interpretation of what's really going on in these images has made every card seem more and more sinister. And yeah...the deck also tempers itself with the Major Arcana which is wholly unlike anything else in the rest of the pack. But still....dark deck. I think this one qualifies.

snowy25	24 May 2005
I think by reading all the posts, the question was asked in a wrong way. It wasn't dark, but horible in-human etc. And I've only read one post (I can't seem to find it) I thought awnsered this thread. I know some people who ARE the type of people Deana meant. I can't imagine finding even one of them responding to these posts at AT. I don't think the people who DO have the decks refered to (I haven't seen any of them jet) and who are very evil come here at all or are reading the tarot for long. Most just enjoy it to hurt others for some reason. There was a time in my life I too wanted to know why. That's over and I've exepted I couldn't possible understand. The people reffered to aren't able to love or to have friends beside those they have around them for enjoyment, torture or they need something from them. This is the way I saw them. And I think veryone who responded so far couldn't give Deana the right awnser and doesn't understand either. Just because a person like she meant wouldn't make the effort of being a member on AT very long or responding on a thread that's this long. That's my take on it.

Thirteen	24 May 2005
Deana wrote: If I'm misunderstanding dark decks, then explain to me how. If they aren't intended to be humorous, and they aren't intended to glorify violence, and they give happy positive readings...what on earth am I missing here? Look, Deana, you've got two problems here. And I'm going to post two posts to handle them. They're very different, and we NEED to seperate them as they're not at all related beyond the surface. Problem #1--The TEEN problem. You're going through what all adults go through when they see a teen in "rebellion" mode. They say, "Been there, done that! You should listen to me kid, I know!" Kid won't listen. They're searching for idenity, for a group to belong to, for their TRIBE. That's what adolesence is about and if there's any problem with Western culture, it's that it drags out adolesence. Those rites of passage mentioned in primitive cultures are important NOT just for giving kids a scare but MORE SO because once the kid has gone through them, he's an adult. Treated as one, brought into the tribe. We don't do that. We don't bring our kids into the tribe. We keep them, without ceremony of any kind, on the outskirts until they've got a job and apartment. That's a looooooong adolesence. A long time to be asking yourself, "Who am I and how to I fit into the world? How can I make my voice heard? How can I get adults to take me seriously?" No surprise that our Teens seek out their own ways to assert their "adulthood"--rather like teens finding out about sex on their own if you don't teach them. You are a jaded, mature Adult. And it's tiring to look at teens and immature adults who refuse to listen to your wise advice. That's the REALITY you're seeing. NOT that teens are all into dark stuff! Look around and you'll see that at this point, in the U.S. at least, the most popular way to rebel, assert independence and be part of a "tribe" ISN'T Goth--it's to get into Bible study. To be sweet and clean looking and go to Church and knock on doors and convert unbelievers. Do you find this any less disturbing than the Goth kids? Any less teen like? I don't. You just see the Goths more because they're into Tarot. But if you open your eyes, you'll see all the other "tribes" of teens and they're just as numberous, and just as annoying. So. Problem #1. You're annoyed with seemingly jaded, cynical teens trying to shock parents. Nothing to do with "darkness the aesthetic." Let's cut that out of the equation. I promise you, I promise you that there is not more darkness in the media or literature now then there has been before outside of the fact that there's more people on earth to produce it--and a internet to spread it faster. We can go back to Greek myth and stories of rape and murder at Troy. It's there, it's always been there--just like complaints of teens who don't respect or listen to their elders.

Thirteen	24 May 2005
Deana wrote: If I'm misunderstanding dark decks, then explain to me how. If they aren't intended to be humorous, and they aren't intended to glorify violence, and they give happy positive readings...what on earth am I missing here? I said there were two problems. The first is simply that you're tired of people who DO exist--rebelling teens asserting that darkness is the only "reality" and equally immature adults asserting the same. My point on that score is that "darkness" has nothing to do with them. Their immaturity could focus on anything, Bible study or romantic comedies and it would still be immature and simplistic. We can absolutely agree on how annoying such people are. Now to "darkness" itself. What are you missing? CONTEXT. Buffy, which you love, isn't always a humorous show. It's had it's dark, serious moments. But it's always been symbolic of growing up. Buffy is about teens going through adolesence where hair sprouts and guys act like wolves, where nasty bullies prey on weaker victims, where you have to defeat the monster daily--and your parents just aren't going to understand. It's this, not just the humor, which made Buffy NOT simplisticly dark. Richness is all. And "Darkness" can be very rich. Erasing the immature teens and adults from the equation, erasing on-line decks with artwork that involves sexual fantasies--erasing those from the equation, what is the appeal of the "darkness." Complexity, is the appeal. One of my favorite movies is Goodfellas. Based on a true story about gangsters. It starts with a brutal stabbing as it's opening. I assure you, PROMISE you, I don't watch this movie over and over again to see a man stabbed. Movies of pure violence don't interest me. Bore me to tears, actually. What interests me about this movie is the complexity of characters--blue collar working types in this case--how they relate to each other, the need for power and how it manifests itself, the use of power once they have it. Also the rise and fall of such power. I don't want to be a gangster and I don't want to be shaken down by one. But, especially in the multicontextualism offered by the director, I find this an amazing movie. When a mature, thinking person likes a Vampire deck, it isn't because they want to suck blood or think depressing thoughts. It's because the symbolism of Vampires is rich and interesting. Power, control, sexuality, the predator. We explore these aspects of our humanity in this symbol. Is "light" less complex? Not at all. Dark/light--either can be simplistic or complex. Just remember this: CONTEXT matters. In what context are you seeing this light, this darkness? Take Christianity. The story of a man whipped, made to wear thorns, nailed to a cross, forced to drink vinegar, stabbed with a spear....Yet the Passion, which dwelled, in loving detail, on all of this, was a hugely popular movie. Is this fascination with dark? Consider that in the 70's the popular movies of Jesus were Jesus Christ Superstar and Godspell--neither of which took much time with the crucifiction, focusing instead on what Jesus preached. Same story! Different emphasis. Context. How is the darkness presented? If it's presented well, as in Buffy, then it's complex, rich, meaningful, layered. If it's presented simplistically--by immature people, say--then it's not. Then it's just rape and murder--with no context. Light is the same. Is it the richness of Winnie the Pooh, or is it the saccrine simplicity of Barney? Context.

Fudugazi	24 May 2005
All I can say is - Bravo Thirteen! I second all you wrote (and I love Goodfellas too). We need to explore our own darkness, too. Some people need it more than others, but I think if we reject it entirely we deny it. I spent a lot of time around some very unpleasant people. The kind of people doing dreadful things on the decks you deplore, Deana. It was my job until a while ago and I left because after nearly 6 years it was getting too much: and I feared addiction to the evil side of life. I'm all too aware of the lure of evil (dark and light evil! - I like that chart, WolfyJames) - and the murky borders borders between interest, voyeurism and indwelling. But "dark" decks - including those depicting violence and blood - allow me to explore what my fascination is, above and beyond wanting to help the victims, which was always my first motivation. I think, also, those bloody decks (like the Gothic Tarot of the Vampires, which I own and work with - and like) - respond to something very real in human nature - very old and primal: blood sacrifice, and the whole link between prey and predator (human beings started off as prey - were prey for a long time - and became predators only relatively recently), as well as the sexual urge that are entwined in these concepts. I once wrote a thread on that, I shan't repeat it, but if you are interested in a "dark" (and bloody) dream I had which needed some kind of interpretation and exploration, it is here: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=40291 not Tarot - the Faery Oracle! Thirteen - your description of US youth rebelling by being goody-two-shoes and trying to convert the ungodly reminded me of Saffi and her mother Edina in Absolutely Fabulous!

Fudugazi	24 May 2005
Qofcups wrote: But, would you consider addiction darkness, because if that is the case, than I think Winnie the Pooh's obsession with honey is the dark side of Pooh Bear. It is honey that gets him stuck in a Rabbit hole, stung by bees, caught in his own heffelump trap. Of course there is darkness in THe Hundred Acre Wood, all great children's literature contains darkness. This is so true - about Pooh Bear and about children's literature. And about how it is being bowdlerised, because it is ADULTS who are afraid of darkness. I met a couple once who wouldn't tell their 6-year old boy his dog had died. They didn't want to introduce him to death, because death is dark and unpleasant and frightening. So they got another dog, exactly the same. Except it wasn't the same. The dog was different - and the boy realised immediately this wasn't his dog. The fallout of all that was that not only he learnt about death in that kind of negative circumstance, he learnt aobut duplicity and lies, and fear of the dark that leads to greater evil (in this case, Light Evil, to borrow from WJ again). How many people do you know tell their children their granny is now a star, or an angel, and don't tell them about the material finality of death? Pooh is addicted to honey, of course. But once he gets stuck in Rabbit's hole, he has to use Mind over Matter to overcome his trouble - and he does. The story has addiction and recovery in it - as well as friendship and understanding from his friends.

catti	24 May 2005
WolfyJames wrote: You should read Nocturnal Witchcraft by Konstantinos. He does a good job of explaining darkness and light (both good) and good and evil. he even made a chart: .................................Good ......Good-Light..........................Good-Darkness Light........................................................Darkness ......Evil-Light.............................Evil-Darkness ................................Evil As you can see, Evil-Light is there, which is true, Light can be Evil, or should I say, evil can be found in light as much as in darkness. So the idea that only people who dwell in darkness can commit horrible acts is not true. Great chart , as far as I know not original concept to Konstantinos but so what? It makes the point. I think , sometimes we all get too caught up in the Good/Bad dichotomy. Who can answer these questions with any assurance, why do good things happen to bad people? Why do bad things happen to good people? I dont believe in Black and White....in a way , perhaps I find that belief system to be THE EVIL ( cursed absolutes! cursed generalizations!), always dividing and separating into the Saved and the Lost.

Indigo Rose	24 May 2005
WolfyJames wrote: Living in darkness does not make one commit murders, more than the others. .... I studied a bit of psychology and we did read this case.... Even you would crack under the pression even though you are under the illusion that you wouldn't hurt a fly. First of all I am not under any illusion that I wouldn't or couldn't hurt a fly. That is an inflammatory statement and really takes away from any logical discussion of the topic. As for the Psychology you have studied and the cases you have described, I too have studied these things. This by no means makes me an expert on Human behavior; nor you. These studies also do not proove that ALL people will choose to behave the same way under the same circumstances. If you will recall from the "shock" studies 60-65% of those tested administered the shocks. So what about the other 35-40%? What about those who practiced acts of mercy and salvation during the Holocaust? We have a choice. These studies should be lessons, not licenses. What is the point of study if not to learn? I agree that darkness in all it's form needs to be understood. When we understand a thing we can deal with it more efficiently. The studies you describe and the mention of the Holocaust do not give us license to succumb to evil darkness and hurt people, just because we are ALL capable of doing so. The danger in excusing evil dark behavior is giving license to it. Defining it, understanding it, and dealing with it are very different from glorifying it. That is what I believe Deana was questioning....The glorification and obsession with darkness(to which I will add evil darkness for the sake of semantics.) Semantics is at the heart of this argument. Darkness and light: 2 words painted with a broad brush. Your book reference seems intriguing and I certainly am willing to investigate this. I agree that evil often masquerades as light. I also agree that in the midst of the darkness we can find great beauty. However, it is all in the definition. We are so boxed in by our words. That is a pity, but that is our way.

Indigo Rose	24 May 2005
Kiama wrote: Firstly, I respect everybody's opinions, but I really feel the need to disagree here. Mainly because I don't think Crowley 'trafficked in darkness' at all - and I do honestly feel that anybody who thinks he did is ignoring a large part of his philosophy - a philosophy that, if it had not been created, would have left the Tarot world and the Pagan world a lot poorer. Crowley's writings and image repel me, because of this I am unable to get beyond the darkness he projected to see the contribution he made. However, out of respect for you and others here, who don't share my limitations, I will refrain from discussing him. Blessings, Indigo Rose

WolfyJames	24 May 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: First of all I am not under any illusion that I wouldn't or couldn't hurt a fly. That is an inflammatory statement and really takes away from any logical discussion of the topic. As for the Psychology you have studied and the cases you have described, I too have studied these things. This by no means makes me an expert on Human behavior; nor you. These studies also do not proove that ALL people will choose to behave the same way under the same circumstances. If you will recall from the "shock" studies 60-65% of those tested administered the shocks. So what about the other 35-40%? What about those who practiced acts of mercy and salvation during the Holocaust? We have a choice. These studies should be lessons, not licenses. What is the point of study if not to learn? I agree that darkness in all it's form needs to be understood. When we understand a thing we can deal with it more efficiently. The studies you describe and the mention of the Holocaust do not give us license to succumb to evil darkness and hurt people, just because we are ALL capable of doing so. The danger in excusing evil dark behavior is giving license to it. Defining it, understanding it, and dealing with it are very different from glorifying it. That is what I believe Deana was questioning....The glorification and obsession with darkness(to which I will add evil darkness for the sake of semantics.) These exemples were about evil-light, not evil-darkness. The professor who was pushing the subjects to give electroshock was nice and trustable. Hitler was seen as a hero at that time, restoring Germany's honor lost during WWI, he himself believed he would have a great destiny as a leader of men, he was a typical evil-light, a typical evil-light who caused the death of millions of people. As for the studies, it shows that you never know what you will do until you're confronted to it. As I said in another post, the rest is illusions and vain talking. The only way to see what you're capable of is by going into darkness and confronting who you really are, finding the truth. It's like if everyone is alcoholic and everyone is in denial. The good-darkness would tell you that you have an addiction and why, how it started, and all this would give you clues on how to get better, what to get rid of and what to work on. Up until then, you're in denial, in evil-light. Evil-light is quite much more common than people think, it's because evil-darkness is so easy to spot that they don't think evil can take other shapes.

Adjustment	24 May 2005
I think tha darkness in general is how every person choose to look at it. for example i have a family member that view anything that has to do with tarot and other form of divination as darkness, she trully think that any tarot deck is evil no matter what the cards looks like, so i would say that darknes depends on how a person decides to look or think about it.

Moongold	24 May 2005
Everyone has their own versions of darkness. Physical fear, the fascination of power and its abuse - what people are prepared to do to each other, murder and other acts of violence, madness, acute depression, shame. There was a thread recently on “doubt” but I wonder whether the author was not referring to darkness. I think you have to understand darkness to value the light. But being too familiar with darkness - being lost in madness or the murky grey of nothingness or in a fascination with corruption - would be, for me, a fate worse than death. That is my choice. I am with Mary Oliver: - That Sweet Flute John Clare That sweet flute John Clare; that broken branch Eddy Whitman; Christopher Smart, in the press of blazing electricity; My uncle the suicide; Woolf, on her way to the river; Wolf, of the sorrowful songs; Swift, impenetrable mask of Dublin; Schumann, climbing the bridge, leaping into the Rhine; Ruskin, Cowper; Poe, rambling in the gloom-bins of Baltimore and Richmond-- light of the world, hold me. MARY OLIVER West Wind, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston, 1997

Indigo Rose	24 May 2005
Moongold wrote: ... I think you have to understand darkness to value the light. But being too familiar with darkness - being lost in madness or the murky grey of nothingness or in a fascination with corruption - would be, for me, a fate worse than death. That is my choice. I am with Mary Oliver: - That Sweet Flute John Clare ....light of the world, hold me. MARY OLIVER West Wind, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston, 1997 Well said.

skh	24 May 2005
You say "What is it with the fascination with darkness?" I hear "Darkness is bad." I say "What is it with judging a view on this world that is as valid as yours?" You hear "Darkness is good." Is it about darkness at all? Can we escape this trap, ever?

Shadowlynx	24 May 2005
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Scion	24 May 2005
Thirteen wrote: What are you missing? CONTEXT. ...Dark/light--either can be simplistic or complex. Just remember this: CONTEXT matters. In what context are you seeing this light, this darkness? ...Light is the same. Is it the richness of Winnie the Pooh, or is it the saccrine simplicity of Barney? Context. TRUE!!! The great irony about your post in response to the original question is that Tarot is essentially a CONTEXT ENGINE: a series of complicated images that contain facets of meaning that are continually reexamined and reinterpreted based on their position and neighbors. Context. Contextualizing is actually what we mean when we say "reading" the cards. In much the same way that "reading" a book is actually contextualizing the little squiggles on the page so that we may understand them as a series of thoughts frozen in the act of passing from one mind to another. Context. Thirteen, that was insanely articulate and considered. If nothing else I'm finding this thread fascinating because of the incredibly sensitive, thoughtful replies...

catti	24 May 2005
I still dont know exactly what a dark deck is..... I have some of the so called :light: decks and the :dark: decks and dont see the extreme difference~ I think it must be something like obscenity, you know it when you see it?

jmd	24 May 2005
It obviously isn't the case with everyone that the words 'dark' and 'light' refer to more metaphorical concepts. But these are the senses in which I sense most of us have taken them. With any metaphor, there are also problems of limitation with both connotation and denotation, which, in this instance, may be quite at odds. For example, I would personally not consider 'dark' metaphorically connected to the night, yet the night is, by comparison to the light of day, dark. Similarly, I would not in any manner want to connect the metaphorical 'dark' or 'light' to epidermy. Nor again to the 'darkness' within the confines of the Earth, or a seed within its pod. For myself, I tend to have used the terms in ways very reflective of directions of movement towards inner freedom, and the spiritual influence behind the deck. Of course, many may very well question what this latter even possibly means, and, for myself, will be tied up with forces moving in three principal directions: forced acceleration (trying to get to a place before 'due' time), retardation (holding back transformation), and just the right enlightened influence... ...a bit like that 'just right' that Goldylocks finds. In that sense, I do see that various decks reflect in different ways spiritual influence working itself through the artist(s), and, in that sense too, may make judgements (provisional, and subject to revision and further insight) as to what qualitative influx finds itself reflected. If, for example, the Crowley-Harris deck reflects that statement of his that 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; Love is the Law, Love under Will', then one needs to also assess that foundational basis. For myself, I find it fundamentally one-sided. Perhaps, Will under Love would be a more appropriate expression (though we may have discussions as to whether the two, in their highest expression, are in any manner different, and whether, in such a case, the term 'under' is in any way appropriate). As one imbues oneself with a deck, which movement, which orientation, which opening, and which impulse, flows through one's being? It is this question that I would personally seek to answer to ascertain a deck's metaphorical brightness.

Shadowlynx	24 May 2005
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Thirteen	24 May 2005
catti wrote: I still dont know exactly what a dark deck is..... I have some of the so called :light: decks and the :dark: decks and dont see the extreme difference~ The "dark" in this case (and only in this case given what's been said by Deana's posts) seems to refer to cynicism, depression, the glass is not merely half-empty, but empty, dirty and cracked. Note, in addition, repeated references to violence and rape. I'm going to assume here that most of the decks Deana's refering to are unpublished decks that glorify violent, sexual fantasies. Rape, murder, blood-shed, eviseration....And/or, decks that our Teen Goths want, like Gieger or Vampire--decks with dark colors, images of violence, power-plays, disturbing sexual metaphors (Gieger can certainly be distrubing, his colors all black, gray and rust, his images, essentially, sexual organs with teeth). There are two questions asked here: 1) Why does this frightening darkness have an appeal? And the anwer to that is very simple: violence is stimulating. Sexually, emotionally, viserally. A study showed that people watching sports *feel* what the atheletes are doing. So when a basketball player flies up to the hoop, people feel that sensation of flying. The same is probably true watching violence--a viewer can feel themselves in that power position (which might be what this all comes down do--are you perpetrator or victim? I'd guess that most of us can switch depending on context; empathize with that energy of defending or fighting, or empathize with the victim--but if we're always perpetrator, then we're going to get high on violence; if always victim, we won't be able to ever watch violence). It's not surprising that such images are appealing to hormonal teens. But there's more to it than that. These are images of power and control. VERY appealing to teens who feel they have very little control. Especially the vampires are represenative of power fantasties. Parents have power in the day--the teen has power at night. Etc. 2) Why the belief that this frightening darkness is more "real" than "light"--light being bright colors, kindness, decency, honesty, etc.? Again, the answer is fairly simple, if you're a teen, life is hell. The body changes, friends change. Fellow classmates are unmerciful to each other, cruel and thoughtless. Come home to restrictions and the evening news which says that the teen's future doesn't look too bright. Toss into this possiblities like parents arguing all the time--or one of them being an alchoholic but no one in the family admits it. Or friends taking drugs or being anorexic--and no one knows or seems to care. Why would any teen believe, given all this, that sweetness and light was "the real world"? If this was my world, I sure as heck would say to a tarot reader, "Don't lie to me with that rainbow-and-unicorns deck! Give me the dark truth! I'm not stupid. I know what the world is like. Give it to me straight!" Cynicism, under such circumstances does seem justified. Better, if you will, to be prepared for the worse, than expect the best and be disappointed.

catti	24 May 2005
Quote: ..a bit like that 'just right' that Goldylocks finds. In that sense, I do see that various decks reflect in different ways spiritual influence working itself through the artist(s), and, in that sense too, may make judgements (provisional, and subject to revision and further insight) as to what qualitative influx finds itself reflected.. i understand until this part: Quote: If, for example, the Crowley-Harris deck reflects that statement of his that 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law; Love is the Law, Love under Will', then one needs to also assess that foundational basis. For myself, I find it fundamentally one-sided. Perhaps, Will under Love would be a more appropriate expression (though we may have discussions as to whether the two, in their highest expression, are in any manner different, and whether, in such a case, the term 'under' is in any way appropriate). As one imbues oneself with a deck, which movement, which orientation, which opening, and which impulse, flows through one's being? It is this question that I would personally seek to answer to ascertain a deck's metaphorical brightness. i feel stupid, but could you rephrase?

catti	24 May 2005
my apologies

Deana	24 May 2005
Wow, I've been offline for a day or two and there are so many new posts and so much to think about. I'm going to have to do some thinking before I respond but it made me happy to see so much intriguing conversation. Now I'm wondering about my favorite characters in certain things: Spike in Buffy; Wolf in 10th Kingdom...characters for whom the dark side is more than a metaphor but who are working through the process of redemption. (But not stuffy repressed Angel...I prefer Spike and Anya to Angel.) And I haven't watched Pooh's Heffalump Movie because...I don't know, it just seems so stupid to meet the Heffalump and have it turn out to be cute. I mean, Heffalump represents things that go bump in the night. To give the impression that *nothing* is dangerous is, in itself, dangerous. Isn't that the message of fairy tales? To introduce children to the idea that the forest is populated with Big Bad Wolves without telling them the specific dangers that lurk in the world? Anyway, I'm going to do some more thinking before I post anymore. I don't think it's healthy to dwell on negativity, but to pretend it doesn't exist isn't healthy either. Must think more before posting.

Nevada	24 May 2005
Kiama wrote: Secondly, I feel that the Creator created BOTH light and dark, and that if I want to get in touch with the Creator, I need to understand both polarities. If I understand darkness, I can guard against the extreme of it, and I know how to respond to it. If I understand, for instance, how a serial killer thinks, I may be able to get to him before he kills again (assuming I was in the FBI or something - which I'm not.) If I understand addiction, I myself can guard against it, and I can do something more to help those who are trapped by it. Thirdly and finally, I really don't see how somebody using the Vampire Tarot, or the Thoth Tarot, or some other 'dark deck' means they are wallowing in darkness or moving away from the light. I agree and want to add some examples from my experience. When I first encountered the Thoth in 1988 I was going through probably the worst year of my life. Today I consider myself a balanced, fairly happy and strong individual. If anything, during the intervening time I've come to know and accept myself better, know my strengths and weaknesses better, and come to greater understanding of the world as a whole. Of course I don't credit all of this to the Thoth deck, but there has been no harm done by my almost daily use of the Thoth during those years. Does that mean it's the right deck for everyone to use? Of course not. It's a matter of choice and personal temperament. People are better off choosing not to use any decks they don't feel comfortable with. As another more extreme example, I know of a person with paranoid schizophrenia who obsesses over a particular Christian religious view. (Religious delusions are common in more severe schizophrenia.) Is religion the cause of his illness? No. Is this an example of religion causing a problem? No. And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether the religion in question is a "good" religion or not. The disease is the problem. If you're seeing what you believe to be harm done by such decks, I would suggest looking deeper into the situation. If someone you know is obsessing, perhaps the obsession and its root cause are the problem, not the deck of cards. Can a set of images feed such an obsession? Yes. In that case the person needs help, and probably a more cheerful deck, or no deck, for a while. Can cards cause these problems? I doubt it. So the question is, does what you see as obsession over darkness cause someone actual harm? Another person being annoyed by their choice doesn't qualify as harm. Thirteen wrote: Those rites of passage mentioned in primitive cultures are important NOT just for giving kids a scare but MORE SO because once the kid has gone through them, he's an adult. Treated as one, brought into the tribe. . . . We don't do that. We don't bring our kids into the tribe. We keep them, without ceremony of any kind, on the outskirts until they've got a job and apartment. Thirteen, that's an excellent point about teens being too often treated as children rather than young adults. Nevada

Dark Inquisitor	25 May 2005
I think there needs to be a distinction between darkness and just plain gore & violence . Darkness is a quality that has more to do with aesthetics in my own opinion. Why are people drawn to decks that are violent and gorey? Perhaps they are angry and this expresses it for them , or after having waded knee deep in it in our culture they no longer even "see" it. One can become immune to such images and depersonalise them. Why do people play murderous video games? People develop a perverse appetite for violence , and do not even realize it . Dominance, conflict, rage , and control are themes that run through the human psyche and can become overstimulated. For myself, you will not see me consorting with the tarots of mermaids, dolphins, and happy trolls. The Robin Wood repulses me with its' overly sugary images. But neither will you see me with a Giger , or one of the bloody decks. Tarot in itself can be considered dark. Part of the more mysterious , perhaps hidden aspect of life. There is a Death card, the 10 of Swords, the Devil, etc. Some might see those cards and decide tarot is evil based on that and nothing more. Do we take out the darker cards and run screaming? Or do we see what they have to say to us? If we don't lump violence and gore into the definition of darkness, then perhaps we will be open to the beauty of the dark . The mysterious, the hidden, the unknown . If you want to see the beauty of the moon, you have to go out in the dark.

jmd	25 May 2005
Just to make a short reply to catti's question based on my rather obtuse post... My comment about Crowley and his personal view about love and will and the 'law' was in regards to Kiama's post in which she states that she 'honestly feel[s] that anybody who thinks he did ["trafficked in darkness"] is ignoring a large part of his philosophy', and the supposed merit of his now famous rendition of the relationship between will and love. Though it does depend on how one is going to characterise darkness, I personally think there is little doubt that his activities whilst in Sicily, for example, can be characterised as 'trafficking in darkness' (though I would not have personally used the term 'traffic') - and of course there are other examples. The sentences of mine that follow are independent of this point, and apply generally to, in my view, all decks and how we are to ascertain or discern amongst their merit (again, it does not mean that, in this discernment, one cannot make errors). Ie, the two sentences: [indent]As one imbues oneself with a deck, which movement, which orientation, which opening, and which impulse, flows through one's being?[/indent] In other words, working with and reflecting on a deck, how does one begin to sense the fluctuations within one's being? Here one may begin to discern that which has also played into the very deck one works with. Hence: [indent]It is this question that I would personally seek to answer to ascertain a deck's metaphorical brightness.[/indent] I suppose that I do not hold a relativistic view with regards to ontological questions, though do have a relativistic acceptance as to epistemological ones. In other words, things do have particular characteristics, or they don't, though our knowledge of them may be blurred and remain incomplete. With regards to the example of rites of passage at around the age of thirteen or fourteen, and though I do agree that this marks an important stage, it should not, in my view, be held in the same manner as a full acceptance into the 'adult' world: there is, usually and concomitantly, a period of often about seven years of apprenticeship that follows, and a social norm that places elders in positions respected not on equal basis as the views of a sixteen year old (for example). This can be, if one wants, seen in the process of the Atouts (major arcana) as well, where there is a death of sorts that occurs at XIII (thirteen), but it is not until after XXI (twenty-one) that one may face the whole world and be given 'la clef des champs' (the keys of the fields): freedom (even if forced out) to roam the fields and villages (le Fou).

snowy25	25 May 2005
Deana wrote: Now I'm wondering about my favorite characters in certain things: Spike in Buffy; Wolf in 10th Kingdom...characters for whom the dark side is more than a metaphor but who are working through the process of redemption. (But not stuffy repressed Angel...I prefer Spike and Anya to Angel.) And I haven't watched Pooh's Heffalump Movie because...I don't know, it just seems so stupid to meet the Heffalump and have it turn out to be cute. I mean, Heffalump represents things that go bump in the night. To give the impression that *nothing* is dangerous is, in itself, dangerous. Isn't that the message of fairy tales? To introduce children to the idea that the forest is populated with Big Bad Wolves without telling them the specific dangers that lurk in the world? Anyway, I'm going to do some more thinking before I post anymore. I don't think it's healthy to dwell on negativity, but to pretend it doesn't exist isn't healthy either. Must think more before posting. Maybe something more to think about. I'm alsow a huge Buffy fan and you've just got a point on Spike and Anya. In one episode Spike raped or almost raped Buffy (I walked out of the room because I couldn't watch it). The story goes Spike's evil but still has the chip that keeps him from doing harm. Spike is evil and the only thing making him behave are the chip, his lust for Buffy (lust because I can't call this love) and the joy he gets from a fight. Later on he got his soul back. Spike is a dark caracter. Anya's a different story. She became a demon after she got jelouse after her boyfriend cheated on her with a local girl from a bar. Making him into a troll she became a vengence demon after the head demon of vengence came to her. She lost her powers at some point and got into a relationship with Xander. Xander then left her on the alter and she became a demon again. But this time she found out what the impact of her spells where, got into a fight where Buffy wanted to kill her and decided to stop being a demon, lost her powers and started working on her issues. Wat's the difference? Spike was made a creature of pure evil before he got his soul back. After killing his mother and raping Buffy many people watching the series still liked him. Anya was a human who chooce to become an evil creature hiding from her true self in darkness. So Buffy to has killings (Faith, Spike, Anya, Willow etc.) in it that aren't taken care of but are just hushed away as in 'every one makes mistaces' The serie has rape and blood shedding in it as well as love and soapy issues. Don't you think many people who like dark decks are seeing the decks like you watch Buffy? But take readings with them even more seriouse? Because the serie is about people growing up and everything around them are methaphores for good and bad situations. Think about it because I'm curiouse with what you come up with. Love and light Snowy

Thirteen	25 May 2005
snowy25 wrote: Maybe something more to think about. I'm alsow a huge Buffy fan and you've just got a point on Spike and Anya. In one episode Spike raped or almost raped Buffy (I walked out of the room because I couldn't watch it). I couldn't watch it either. Know why? It was a BAD EPISODE! I'll argue at that point that neither character was well written or true to themselves. That part of the season, let's face it, screwed up. As a writer and someone who knows how televison and movies work, let me explain: sometimes, the person in charge (NOT Joss W. in this case), wants something to happen. And other people will argue, "that would never happen! The characters wouldn't act that way!" But the person wants it, and so it happens, however wrong headed. This, to me, is a perfect example of what I was saying regarding the potential complexity of darkness vs. simply liking violence and rape. If it's a good episode, with the characters true to themselves then even if they do something terrible, something that makes a person cringe, it can still be appreciated. Like stabbing a man to death in Goodfellas--absolutely that character would do that! But if a figure is doing something just for the sake of doing it (attempted rape for the sake of soap opera drama--or to prove that they're still "dark"), then what the person is going for is the rape, not complexity or richness of story. They subtract from the "darkness" and turn it simplistic rather than letting it be true and complex. Not to turn this into a Buffy debate, but while most of BVS is wonderful, we should remember that not all episodes are good and holy and perfect. Some, especially in the last seasons, were really misguided. The rape is one of the worst. It betrayed both characters, Buffy's inner strength and experience, and Spike's adoration (from the first) of LOVE. Spike, even as "pure evil" has always worshiped Love and known what Love is. Go back to earlier episodes and you'll see--There's a lot of dark things the character could/would do--but betray Love that way? Never. This is rape for the sake of having a rape. It doesn't make Spike dark--it just makes the episode bad.

Thirteen	25 May 2005
jmd wrote: With regards to the example of rites of passage at around the age of thirteen or fourteen, and though I do agree that this marks an important stage, it should not, in my view, be held in the same manner as a full acceptance into the 'adult' world Perhaps not now, but if we remember back in the day--a boy was apprenticed and learned how to do whatever he was going to do for the tribe/village at age 7. By 14, he's done with the apprenticeship and at least a Journeyman. By 15-16 he's married with a kid on the way. Let's remember this was true on up through the depression with kids working adult jobs by age 14. Too young for our modern world, yes. But when it's likely that a person will be dead by 40, adulthood at puberty makes perfect sense. It also integrates the young, strong men into the tribe as warriors, rather than letting them gather together as outsiders to threaten the tribe--as gangs of young thugs do now.

tmgrl2	25 May 2005
I'm going to speak for myself... Sometimes I am drawn to what others may consider "darkness" ... not perhaps in Tarot...(although I consider my Morgan-Greer my "dark" deck...so figure that out) I think that when I am, whether it's in a movie, or someone else's tragic situation, or in a novel....it's because I want to reaffirm that The darkness within me at times....is part of life...is "normal." I don't stay there long, but occasionally I seek out that which others may be too horrified to look at, read about....to Notice that both sides exist...for there to be light, one must know what darkness is? The greater joy I have felt in my life as I age, I believe has as much to do with the dark side of myself and of life that I have explored... Sometimes it's a chance encounter...sometimes it's more choice, arising from a mood. I can say that in my later years, I find that I "need" or wish less and less to see things that are dark, or to look through the lens of darkness in order to see light. Umbrae did a reading for me using a "dark" deck in conjunction with Runes: http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=31377 I revisit this reading periodically...... Quote: all the demons of hell cannot deny you what you've earned. But you can. Balance in life is about keeping the focus and about realizing one draws to oneself what is sought. Quote: Justice is about focus. Keep yours. The experience we identify as "the dark night of the soul" has built within in powerful possibilities for growth and learning. It's all about what we see when we look, not so much about how "dark" or "light" something said to be. A person dying of cancer....a young person, let's say...yet, one filled with joy. An anomaly? Not necessarily....if one believes that healing is of the spirit...and that darkness need not take up residence. terri BTW...I own the Vargo Gothic...but haven't read with it...maybe one day I will....maybe the "right" sitter will appear. One thing I know for sure though...I no longer fear the "darker" things in life. They may cause me some pain...but hopefully, I will stay in a place of pain for a very short period of time compared to the me of years ago.

Moongold	25 May 2005
OF the visages of things—And of piercing through to the accepted hells beneath; Of ugliness—To me there is just as much in it as there is in beauty—And now the ugliness of human beings is acceptable to me; Of detected persons—To me, detected persons are not, in any respect, worse than undetected persons—and are not in any respect worse than I am myself; Of criminals—To me, any judge, or any juror, is equally criminal—and any reputable person is also—and the President is also. Walt Whitman

Emeraldgirl	25 May 2005
Moongold how very wise and true.

closrapexa	26 May 2005
One of the most fascinating threads that I have read, and I, as usual, have arrived very late into the game. There have been so many wonderful things said, and I can see both sides, even if I must disagree with one of them. About dark decks, well... I wouldn't say that there is no such thing, because as I am so find of saying, when anyone creates a deck, then he/she is out to say something, whether it is their opinion about bunny rabits or about vampires. The Vargo Gothic, which I have yet to buy, looks like a great deck, but it still seems a bit to sterile for me. It looks too much like a cartoon. I'd like more realism. However, I still want it, if only because it is like a cartoon, like Buffy, Angel or whatnot. However, in the course of this thread I have seen for the first time the Giger Tarot, with which I fell in love. I MUST HAVE IT! Does that make me a morbid character? I don't think so. I don't see myself as a rebellious teenager, either. Whether we like it or not, darkness is a part of all of us. When Dr. Jekyll drank the potion, it did not "create" Mr. Hyde, but brought out the darkeness that was in him from the start. Even the most violent of decks does not "glorify" rape, murder or violence. But, sadly, these things do exist. And there are so many movies, books and tarot decks that explore these issues. For that is what it is, ultimately. In order to know yourself well, you have to be aware of what you can or cannot do, but also what you should and should not do. Hence, for this reason, there is a place for darkness in all of our lives. I like violent movies, when they are tastefully done and when the violence has a reason for being there. When it is dramatically necessary. On the other hand, creations that have no violence whatsoever also have their place, for they are all part of the mosaic of humanity. Perhaps Stephen King did the most ingenious thing when he turned a clown, the symbol of childhood and laughter, into a monster. The heffalump is not cute, at the core of the Labrynth is a Minotaur and the most popular characters in fiction have been the villains. Why do we love them? Because they bring out that which we cannot, ever. We do not destroy entire planets nor do we take over oil companies while bedding supermodels. But should we shun all those villains, we would be hiding from a part of ourselves without which we would be imbalanced in the extreme.

snowy25	26 May 2005
Thirteen: You may have been right about Spike. Allthough I would love a conversation about the serie itself, I don't want to drift off topic here. I tried to compare the serie with dark decks and why people like them. Sometimes something familiar is a good starting point to make a better connection in a discussion. I myself like cute fluffy decks as well as some 'dark' decks and the inbetweens. It just depends on the mood I'm in. But what I thought earlier was the decks that where meant in this discussion where not like the gothic or fampire decks, but the morbid once (if they exist because I've never seen one).

Indigo Rose	26 May 2005
Just a memory here.... When I was a girl of 13, I sat next to a boy who loved to look at Fangora Magazine during study hall. For those who don't know what that is: it is a magazine with gory pictures of mutilated bodies and utterly disgusting scenes; very sickening. He would spend his entire study hall writing out his plan for the pefect murder and how to dispose of the body. Of course he was not content to do this in his own space, he felt it necessary to share his gruesome tales and pictures with me. Now, was he an adolescent filled with angst and just entertaining himself? Or was he a future killer grooming himself for the job? Most likely just entertaining himself. I have never heard of him on the serial killer circuit; not yet any how. However, it totally creeped me out. This thread reminded me of that memory as we have been discussing "darkness". That was pretty dark to me. Then again Stephen King, who has been mentioned here, is a brilliant writer who has perfected the art of the "dark" writing and film making. I love some of his work. He has certainly spent a great deal of his life dealing with darkness and from my vantage point has created some great works. I see the value in looking into the darkness and trying to release our fears of it. However, just like in Stephen King's IT where the clown is the villan we have to be careful about staring into the "dead lights" or we will be sucked in and lost to it. Blessings, Indigo Rose ;)

Thirteen	26 May 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: Just a memory here.... When I was a girl of 13, I sat next to a boy who loved to look at Fangora Magazine during study hall. For those who don't know what that is: it is a magazine with gory pictures of mutilated bodies and utterly disgusting scenes; very sickening. Funny you should mention that. My 50-odd-year old auntie has been a horror fan for all her life; one might say she was a Goth at a time when Goths weren't so very common. Next weekend she's going to a Fangora Convention. I remember, when I was little, that she took me to a double feature to see one of her favorite horror films, but the other film, preceeding it, was so gory and scary that I ended up in the lobby waiting for her. We subsequently went home without seeing the intended film, much to her chagrin :D I imagine that she would have gotten along fine with this boy. She is by no means a serial killer...at least, not that I know of; she's always dressed colorfully (almost never in all black), has a wonderful sense of humor, and bottomless compassion for others. And she decorates her house marvelously at Halloween. At a guess, that boy you knew in school probably works in films and movies. A lot of those types end up as make-up men and designers of monsters.

Thirteen	26 May 2005
snowy25 wrote: Thirteen: You may have been right about Spike. Allthough I would love a conversation about the serie itself, I don't want to drift off topic here.I tried to compare the serie with dark decks and why people like them.Sometimes something familiar is a good starting point to make a better connection in a discussion. Oh, I agree that something familiar is a good starting point--I just feel that that particular episode wasn't the best example--mainly because people still liked Spike post-attempted rape because they didn't believe it. If they had believed it, I don't know that it would have been forgivable OR redeemable. A more interesting example of liking a character who went dark and did "unforgivable" things might be Faith, who they managed to keep true to herself inspite of the wide swings from very dark to lesser dark (she was never really "light"). The Mayor is also a fascinating character being the epitomy of cleaness, cheer and propriety on the outside while being a monster within. Many fans think him the best villian they ever had.

Moongold	28 May 2005
The older I become the more I realise how little I know and how wise it is, often, to say nothing. Other people have often said what needs to be said in a far better way than I. This is why I love poetry. A wise person here inadvertently sent me on a search wherebyI discovered the poet Rumi. I thought Rumi was another new age mystic who had found his way to the United States and ended up getting published there. Well, Rumi is an early 13th century Persian poet. He lived in that part of Persia which is now Afghanistan. He wrote this, which I think is quite beautiful and wise, and reframes the idea of personal darkness. He speaks of the mind as a guesthouse. The Guesthouse This being human is a Guest House. Every morning a new arrival A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor.. Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they are a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house Empty of its furniture, Still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond. Rumi.

Imagemaker	28 May 2005
That poem is a particular favorite of mine--and it applies to the process of vipassana meditation where you welcome all the thoughts and emotions that come, and then see what insights they bring you. The translations of Rumi's works by Coleman Barks are the best, I think.

augursWell	28 May 2005
Well, I've only gotten half way through this long and very interesting discussion but found I had to respond to a few things... Please lay off the "fluffy bunny" references. I have a *rabbit* in my life and anyone who has lived with rabbits knows that they exhibit the full range of emotions, actions, and relationships that any living thing does. I understand that "fluffy bunny" refers to a human concept but my rabbit is getting really pissed! :) I also think it was clear in the first post that it is rape, murder, torture, cruelty, and other acts of inhumanity towards fellow humans that was the real concern. What Tarot decks and how many decks depict such things caused the discussion, in my view, to take a wrong tack. "Dark" decks are debatable as to which decks are such but the real problem refered to has to do with seeing, using, making a part of one's life images that, in one way or another, depict acts of cruelty or "evil". The idea of Dark and Light being equated with Evil and Good is a complete and utter mistake. It is like when people say that Yin and Yang is the way of the world (it is) so one has to accept sometimes Good sometimes Evil (one does not). For example, Winter is often seen as opposite to Summer, yin and yang. But you cannot say that one of those seasons is good and one evil. Good and Evil is an entirely different concept and has nothing to do with light or dark, summer or winter, up or down. I personally do not watch horror films which have no purpose but to raise the fear factor (tv show hint there was deliberate) in the audience. I do not enjoy seeing people murdered in every conceivable way on the movie screen for a 10 buck movie ticket. But that is not a Tarot deck. I believe in spending the precious time of my life on things that work for my future and the future of my loved ones. I know Tarot has done that for me in many instances. Now back to reading this thread... :)

tmgrl2	28 May 2005
Thank you for the poem by Rumi, Moongold... My wedding band was stolen shortly after we were married. I never replaced it. Then for our 25th wedding anniversary, I got a gold band, engraved by Jeanine Payer with Rumi's: Quote: A mountain keeps an echo deep inside itself. That's how I hold your voice. There was a darkness, yet a beauty in this that attracted me...and so I wear it now on my left ring finger. Plaintive, lonely, dark, yet one with another....

snowy25	29 May 2005
Thirteen wrote: Oh, I agree that something familiar is a good starting point--I just feel that that particular episode wasn't the best example--mainly because people still liked Spike post-attempted rape because they didn't believe it. If they had believed it, I don't know that it would have been forgivable OR redeemable. Ok they didn't believe a caracter like Spikes could do such things but I have to mention that in real life this happens too and also with someone you wouldn't expect it from. And like the way Spike's treated after this this also applies to some one who could do this in real life. So I wouldn'd dissmiss this caracter from being capable of rape. Even if it was a bad episode. But you may have been right about the 'love' part. Faith and Willow have always been my favourite caracters. But now I'm off topic again...

Indigo Rose	29 May 2005
augursWell wrote: ... also think it was clear in the first post that it is rape, murder, torture, cruelty, and other acts of inhumanity towards fellow humans that was the real concern. What Tarot decks and how many decks depict such things caused the discussion, in my view, to take a wrong tack. "Dark" decks are debatable as to which decks are such but the real problem refered to has to do with seeing, using, making a part of one's life images that, in one way or another, depict acts of cruelty or "evil". Yes. That is what the debate is about at heart. I am learning so much from the points that are being brought out in this thread; as are the others who are tuned into this thread. Look how many times it has been read.....WOW!!!! This subject has created a huge buzz in the spirit world for all of us souls to be tuned in like this. Here we all are trying to define light, dark, good, and evil. This matters to us. Why?

closrapexa	29 May 2005
Indigo Rose wrote: Yes. That is what the debate is about at heart. I am learning so much from the points that are being brought out in this thread; as are the others who are tuned into this thread. Look how many times it has been read.....WOW!!!! This subject has created a huge buzz in the spirit world for all of us souls to be tuned in like this. Here we all are trying to define light, dark, good, and evil. This matters to us. Why? Because such questions are indeed meant to be asked, and are important. This thread was begun, as I see it, as a question on the vibility of the "dark" decks and their legitimacy was questioned. All the great myths of the world revolve around the choices of the hero as to using darkeness or cowardice or choosing to look the Gorgon in the face and overcoming it. And that is an important test that we all choose to make, even if it is not in the mythical-heroic sense. We did not become rapist, or thieves or gangsters. But it is all a matter of choice. And I feel, and I run the risk of sounding like a cliched 15 year old, that it is important to know the darkness in prder to know how to shun it. Otherwise there would be no Devil, no Tower.

Fudugazi	29 May 2005
closrapexa wrote: All the great myths of the world revolve around the choices of the hero as to using darkeness or cowardice or choosing to look the Gorgon in the face and overcoming it. And that is an important test that we all choose to make, even if it is not in the mythical-heroic sense. We did not become rapist, or thieves or gangsters. But it is all a matter of choice. And I feel, and I run the risk of sounding like a cliched 15 year old, that it is important to know the darkness in prder to know how to shun it. Otherwise there would be no Devil, no Tower. What you say is so true. Never mind the cliché - it is the Truth. The good man is not the one who does not know what evil is and cannot bear to look at it: the good man is the one who, having full knowledge, and in a time or place where it is easier to be evil than good, or something in between, nevertheless chooses good - hides the Jew in Nazi-occupied Europe, hides the Tutsi in 1994 Rwanda, refuses easy gain, does not betray his neighbours, stands up to bullying, blows the whistle on dishonest practices. The good man is not even the one who stands aside in disgust ("I don't like darkness and evil, I'll have nothing to do with it). He is the one who, at My Lai, not only did not rape and blindly murder the villagers, he did not stand by, he tried to stop the massacre, called down the helicopter, testified against the wrongdoers. And strangely, because of they dare to look at darkness and become fully acquainted with it, the compassion of such people, even for the darkest of evil-doers, is generally on par with their sense of justice. Their line is drawn through the mind, but not through the heart. I think "dark" tarot decks - the Giger and such - are ways we have of looking at evil and becoming completely clear about its ugliness (whether it be light or dark); and look at evil-doers and develop compassion for them, even as we are Just and not only reject what they do, but try and stop it bring them to justice. One of the hardest cards in the Tarot is Justice. That was the greatest lesson I learnt working the jails in Rwanda, with the genocide perps, which started off as the most difficult dilemma- morally speaking - I had ever faced. I learnt the true meaning of "humanity" and "good" and "evil" in those stinking overcrowded holes. At the time - and for the following 5 years - my "deck of choice" was the Mythic Tarot, which has some very cruel and dark scenes on them - the murder of Agammemnon by his wife and her lover, the furies attacking Orestes, Prometheus tied to his rock with the eagle coming to eat his liver (you don't see that, but it is suggested), Poseidon unleashing a terrifying storm against a tower, - and Psyche going down to the Underworld in murkiness, the most telling picture of "plunging into darkness" I've seen in the Tarot - and a card I received a lot as I started my work in the prisons. Closrapexa, you drew the parallel between myth and our confrontation with evil - I couldn't agree more. Being able to look at evil and not be seduced by it, reject and fight it, but learn compassion for those who fall (because it might be us, one cowardly day) is the very essence of being human, I think. The question I now turn back to those who choose only light in their lives is: what is this fascination with the light that blinds one to evil? I read this story in Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust: in Poland, during the Nazi occupation, it was illegal to shelter or give assistance to Jews. It could result in a death sentence or at least, imprisonment. On the other hand, to give a Jew away earnt the traitor sugar and other hard-to-fin items. A Polish peasant was sheltering a Jewish man and his child in his granary. While they were there, another Jewish family came looking for shelter. He gave them away to the local German post, for a couple of kilos of sugar. The same man! Maybe he figured out that the good act cancelled out the bad?? These are the insconsistencies of human behaviour that we are dealing with, and which we can only get to know by looking at them. The real question is how shall we do so? By being fascinated by the darkness and sucked into it? Or by shining a light on it, and saying - this is humanity, this is part of me, for which I can have compassion but which I will not allow to rule and prevail? All too often, those who turn away their eyes from rape, torture and murder simply don't want to know about it. That is not light: that is even greater darkness. Edited to add: to avoid the kind of confusion apparent in the subsequent dialogue between Snowy and me, I just want to add that it's not an invitation to feed on nothing but cruel and sadistic imagery and feel guilty if we prefer to watch Seinfeld on TV rather than a documentary on the Killing Fields. People who have suffered from sadistic crime will also have their own, very different relationship to cruelty - sometimes rejecting all such imagery, sometimes wallowing in them. The trouble starts when we blind ourselves with our light to the Killing Field and our role in their existence. Just so everyone's clear - after I visited prisons, I also went dancing and enjoyed myself. Spending all our lives in misery helps nobody!!

snowy25	29 May 2005
Helvetica wrote: All too often, those who turn away their eyes from rape, torture and murder simply don't want to know about it. That is not light: that is even greater darkness. With do respect but I have to add something here; Some people who've gone thruw the experiance of rape torture etc. can't handle the images on a tv screen or in the movies. You watch tv or a movie because you want to have a good time and you want to be entertaned. Shure this happens in real life and some movies or decks are to be a mirror of real life. But I think you can't judge people for this. It doesn't always have to be greater darkness or blindness in wich they live. People who lived thruw the experiance know all to well what life's like.

Fudugazi	29 May 2005
It is not a judgement, Snowy - merely a statement. I have great sadness and compassion for those who have gone through rape and torture and survived. Many of them are still locked in darkness, and not because they don't want to see rape on TV. Having said that, I don't think I ever said we should spend all our time - and our entertainment - watching rape, torture and murder. If you read that in my post, then let me make it clear that is not want I meant. I also like a good light comedy on TV ;). I meant people who simply don't want to know about ugliness and crime - turn away all the time. It is not necessary to go into prisons, for instance, but it is necessary not to veil our faces with blinding light, rather than shine that light on the wrong and cruel places and doings. And unfortunately there are many people who do hide themselves in their light. I am very sorry for them too :(. Those are whom my return question was directed to, if it be some people recognise themselves. I am not pointing a finger.

snowy25	29 May 2005
I did read your post that way Helvetica and I'm glad you've cleared it out. The other things you've said are very interesting to let my thoughts slide on for some time and I do agree with most of it.

Fudugazi	29 May 2005
I agree, Snowy. I've added an edited note at the bottom of my initial post. I tend to use shortcuts in thought, but you are right to clarify what might be murky in an already difficult minefield!

Imagemaker	29 May 2005
Quote: A Polish peasant was sheltering a Jewish man and his child in his granary. While they were there, another Jewish family came looking for shelter. He gave them away to the local German post, for a couple of kilos of sugar. The same man! Maybe he figured out that the good act cancelled out the bad?? These are the insconsistencies of human behaviour that we are dealing with My first thought here is that he knew he could save one family, and rather than fail at saving two, he had to focus on the one. By turning in the second family he would keep the Germans from suspecting he was sympathetic to Jews and they wouldn't come looking suspiciously. In a desperate horrible situation, saving one is better than losing both--but it takes a strong person to bear the circumstances surrounding this effort.

jumptothemoonyea	29 May 2005
post #113 made me think how accurate is saying "all's fair in love and war"

augursWell	31 May 2005
I think there is a difference between "darkness that teaches" and "darkness for the fun of it". The latter is the type of thing found in a lot of American horror films of late and also some video games. The cruelty and violence have no reality to them, they are just endless and dulling. However, any really good film may go to a very dark place but the goal is to explain something to the audience. I think many "dark" Tarot decks will fall into this category. At least those defending "dark" decks here are making this contention I think. And of course real experiences that any of us have, where we must face the dark side of humanity, will inevitably change us for better or worse.

Thirteen	01 Jun 2005
snowy25 wrote: I have to mention that in real life this happens too and also with someone you wouldn't expect it from. Not to keep beating a dead horse here, but I'm afraid it's irrelevant whether it happens in real life or not--what's relevant is whether the event was real given the circumstances and characters. Would this character do it under those circumstances--and no, he just wouldn't. If he would have, it would have been a shock to viewers--but it wouldn't have felt like shock for shock value. Which is my main point here regarding dark things including murder and rape in "art"--be it television or Tarot Cards. There's huge difference between shock for shock's sake--for soap opera drama--and because the art is somehow made deeper and more layered by it, more "true" if you will, however fantastic. This attempted rape was for shock/drama, not to add layers to the characters or depth and meaning to the show. Quote: So I wouldn'd dissmiss this caracter from being capable of rape. I didn't say I dismissed the character as capable of rape. I dismissed the character of capable of rape in those circumstances.. His attempted attack on Willow in one episode--foiled by the chip in his head--is a perfect example of his being capable of rape--and, in case we missed it, his attempt to bite her is humorously referred to with sexual metaphors after he finds he can't manage it. Vampires attacking and biting are acts of violation, more important than sex in establishing power. That's the RULE of the show. It is certaily the way SPIKE thinks of power. Power isn't in sex, it's in taking the blood of another. THAT's why attempted rape felt wrong and unbelievable. Because it's not how Spike has EVER attempted to assert power, let alone gain a woman's love. In earlier episodes he was certainly capable of rape--meaning capable of draining Buffy's blood as he had that of previous slayers. But once he was in love and wanted love from Buffy. rape would not occur to him. Spike doesn't rape women to gain love, rather he figures out what they want and goes to wild extremes to get them that thing. More true to his character was his going through crazy tests to get a soul. THAT request was a shock/surprise that added depth and reality to the character, that rang true.

ThePlayerOfGames	01 Jun 2005
The early discussion in this thread was amazing, I can't even begin to solidify my thoughts after one read through it all! Imagemaker is quite correct about the guy handing in one family and hiding another being maybe just a question of pragmatism as if he got suspected of hiding too many he would be raided and they'd all die. It could even be he wouldn't have had food for all of them as he'd be stretched with one extra family to feed, tough times call for tough decisions. Umbrae, very intelligent post (2nd page, although it seems 3rd page after a rereading of the thread :p). This kind of hit the crux of the matter for me as whilst I actually favour robin wood tarot at the moment and have a big thing against "dark" decks your comments have a lot of validity. Myself I tend towards dark films (my favorite of all time being irreversible) and one of your comments is exactly why, you have to go into the darkness to see what's there and you do come out stronger and more focused from doing that. Are you an exclusive user of "dark" decks or do you switch onto classic (I assume not fluffy bunny decks :p) decks from time to time? I myself have always found balance between light and dark is important to maintain perspective (although the thoth is as dark as I go which isn't really that dark a deck in my opinion although I have been looking at one of the vampire decks on this site as it seems interesting and the hp lovecraft deck). Deana, I see where your first post came from and being a goth myself I see the people you were talking about every day so I had a bit of a giggle after reading your thoughts as you described so many people I've met. Great thread anyways!!! ps. I laughed at lot at the dark side of winnie the pooh as well :D.

Umbrae	02 Jun 2005
ThePlayerOfGames wrote: Umbrae, very intelligent post (2nd page). This kind of hit the crux of the matter for me as whilst I actually favour robin wood tarot at the moment and have a big thing against "dark" decks your comments have a lot of validity. Myself I tend towards dark films (my favorite of all time being irreversible) and one of your comments is exactly why, you have to go into the darkness to see what's there and you do come out stronger and more focused from doing that. Are you an exclusive user of "dark" decks or do you switch onto classic (I assume not fluffy bunny decks :p) decks from time to time? I myself have always found balance between light and dark is important to maintain perspective (although the thoth is as dark as I go which isn't really that dark a deck in my opinion although I have been looking at one of the vampire decks on this site as it seems interesting and the hp lovecraft deck). Hey Player; Just for the record, I am not an exclusive user of ‘dark’ decks. I like the International Icon Tarot, Hadar’s TdM, Swiss 1jj, I prefer the black on white version of the Japanese-Egyptian tarot rather than the white on black, and others... As I have said many times, when reading Tarot for strangers face-to-face, dark decks become obstacles for rapport. And since it’s about the sitter (and I have to get out of my own way) and not about me, I want to use a deck that helps me build rapport with the sitter. So I will be using a more neutral deck. In parties, bars, and my own home, I often find myself reading in less than ‘broad daylight’, so I have another classification for decks. One, two, three, or four candle decks (how many candles must be lit to read with the deck comfortably). I prefer two-candle decks. But if I’m reading at a psychic fair or some other event where I’m in a huge room with klieg lights or fluorescents (Icky-Poo) shining down on me, I’ve been known to use the Vargo Gothic. The circumstances of the reading can and should help you choose which deck to bring out. Also – don’t dress in pure black, you look like a bit actor from a bad movie.

snowy25	02 Jun 2005
Thirteen: For the sake of this thread I'm putting the discussion elsewhere if you like. Because I still don't agree with you and like to discus this ferther. here http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=529696#post529696 Love and light Snowy

Moongold	28 Jun 2005
I haven't looked back through this thread to check my facts but I think Umbrae asked us to come up with an example of a really dark deck. I own the Orphalese tarot software and was downloading some of their decks a while ago and came across the Alchemical Wedding Tarot by David Aronsen. There is alink to it here. The Orphalese Tarot introduce Aronsen thus: Quote: One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable, and therefore, not popular" - David Aronson quoting Carl Jung in the introduction to this deck. I can't imagine reading with this deck but if you look at the artist's web site you can see where his work originates. I was looking for a positive card and looked at XXI World. It's beautiful but also disturbing and unforgettable. Aronsen's photographic representations of te Holocaust are also disturbing and completely unforgettable. Some of these images are gripping and some incredibly beautiful. Some are ghastly. The Alchemical Wedding Tarot is a majors only deck.

PlatinumDove	28 Jun 2005
Alright Deana, the fascination with dark decks for me....I don't have a fascination with dark decks, though I have wanted to get Vargo's deck for a very long time. Different decks give different types of reactions to questions, for instance out of my 14 decks, I consider my Thoth to be my darkest deck, my Inner Child to be my lightest deck, only because of the way the messages come across when I read with them. Would I get a really dark deck? Sure. Why? To see how it reads in comparison to my others. Have I had darkness in my life? Yup. I've been raped, abused, forced into having an abortion, lived with alcoholics during my early childhood, been clinically depressed for the past 14 years, suicidal for some of them to the point where my exhusband had to literally drag me away from the knife drawer screaming. Just because I've lived in the darkness before doesn't mean I'm going to avoid it. Without darkness we wouldn't know light, and without light we wouldn't know darkness. I embrace both sides as teachers. I've had my share of darkness, and sometimes I can feel it creeping back in. That's when I take a deep breath, face why I'm depressed, and go take a walk. I have a list of things to do on my computer when I can feel the depression starting to set in. I have ways to fight it.

sagewriter	28 Jun 2005
I'm only 19, but I never went thorugh a stage of liking darkness, I just find it too terrifying and evil. This is probably the reason why people like it. It is mainly kids/teens who aren't that popular and don't feel that they fit in. So they go for things that they know will scare other people, it gives them a sort of power, a "club", a place to belong, and a sense of enjoyment in scaring people who hate them. At least, that's what I reckon!

The What's with the fascination with darkness? thread was originally posted on 21 May 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.