How's This For Elemental Dignifiers Made Simple?

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 07 Jun 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

DrMojo	07 Jun 2005
Just came across this explanation and I'm very interested to get this one unpacked a bit by those on the forum who use elemental dignifiers instead of (or in addition to) reversed cards. Here's what it said are the four basic rules: ---- 1. A card next to card(s) of the same suit is made stronger and more well-dignified. 2. A card next to a contrary suit is made more ill-dignified. Wands and cups are contrary. Swords and pentacles are contrary. 3. A card next to one of its own suit and one of a contrary suit receives equal doses of well-dignity and ill-dignity, so it's pretty much normal. 4.A card between two cards that are contrary to each other is not affected much by either of those cards. ---- Now, I've read a lot back and forth that gets pretty involved and brings in all kinds of stuff -- but it seems like maybe this simple definition is at the heart of it all. So, what do you think? 1, 2 and 3 seem pretty straight forward. 4 is a little odd -- seems like either I don't understand it in practical terms or it goes against some other things I've read. Anyway, thanks for helping me get a handle on this. Dr. Mojo

light2000	07 Jun 2005
I´m sorry i know that i will not explain myself at a good way so i will not say what i´m thinking, but have you see the supertarot site? This site explain very well your question.If you didnt see it yet go see it, is very good whith elemental meanings and explain one card next to other. If you never saw this site: www.supertarot.co.uk And yes the point 4 seems a litle odd, really i never thougth about it. I will think at it, maybe i will give you some good point.

DrMojo	08 Jun 2005
Quick note: Yes, I've been to supertarot and it's fine, I'm sure, but it hasn't really clicked with me yet. The quote I gave seems too simple to be true -- especially after trying to get through supertarot. Appreciate the recommendation, but I'm trying to start from the quote and move out, trying to get a basic overview. And yes, please let me know anything that occurs to you. DrMojo

Fulgour	08 Jun 2005
Depending on the spread you choose, the way the cards develop can be seen as more about areas than each other, like wheels within wheels rather than brick between brick. Elemental formulas can be restricting, and contradictory, since YOU have to be happy with the underlying element. I see Aries as The Hierophant, 5th card = 5th letter etc., but if you use the Golden Dawn you buy that whole farm, just like with Thoth being completely off by one beat... Zero does not equal One, and Aleph is The Magician :) So good luck ~ it may be easier to just "feel" the energies! PS: Paul and Elayne at SuperTarot no longer buy into HOGD.

DrMojo	08 Jun 2005
I'm not sure I get all the references in your reply, I admit, and that's no doubt my fault. Let me back up one sec to the original posting and why those particular rules were offered. Let us assume, as I do, that each card in the deck has a kind of continuum built into it. A scale to avoid a simple binary black/white positive/negative reading. Some of that will be intuitive, granted, but let's say one wishes to have a bit more to go on. So, such a reader decides not to deal with reversals. Each card is to be upright. Now, how does one see the subtle nuiances that might be there? One such way is to note the reversals and, while setting the card upright, remember them. That seems clumsy. The second is to use a method -- and in this we'll assume it is elemental dignities, the placement of the card in relationship to other cards. Rather than a reverse/upright "two-switch" mode, you get three -- strengthened, neutral and weakened or ill-difined. How does one do this quite simply and easily. the esoteric mumbo-jumbo stripped asked? Now we are back to a very simple set of "rules" or guidelines from the first post in this thread: 1. A card next to card(s) of the same suit is made stronger and more well-dignified. Makes sense, yes? Full strength/clarity of the card shines through. 2. A card next to a contrary suit is made more ill-dignified. Wands and cups are contrary. Swords and pentacles are contrary. A card in this position is weakened and the meaning will tend toward the lower area of the scale. This will pull one toward the sense that the forces of the card are being blocked or repressed, or the more excessive or subversive side of the card is being expressed. 3. A card next to one of its own suit and one of a contrary suit receives equal doses of well-dignity and ill-dignity, so it's pretty much normal. Ok, so the card expresses itself normally, without amplification or without sliding "down" on the scale. This is a more "neutral" setting. 4.A card between two cards that are contrary to each other is not affected much by either of those cards. This particular points is iffy to me and I'm not sure what the summary is saying except that you dont' read the card as "ill-dignified" if it's surrounded on each side by contrary cards. Does that help to bring in some general comments on the system? I personally find that simply reading without reversals and trusting in something to pop into one's head isn't very trustworthy in differentiating cards on the scale. So, would the above system/theory match what anyone here is doing with some success by reading only laying out cards that are upright? Although I've read and reread search threads on people who do not use reversals, quite often their techniques seem to be a bit airy-fairy and lack a system to which the cards can conform. DrMojo

Fulgour	09 Jun 2005
"Elemental Qualities" by Ian Thurnwald is very good, top notch, and yet it shows in the end how Tarot is another animal: http://astrologycom.com/qual.html The more you study "elements" the more you see them interconnected. Yin & Yang will allow Fire & Water to be "bridged" by Earth ~ which is compatible with both. :) If you have 3 (Yang) of Cups (Yin) and 6 (Yin) of Swords (Yang)... what then? Etc., etc.

DrMojo	10 Jun 2005
I'll answer my own question, I suppose. From my blog at http://www.TarotReader.us/blog.html: To understand Elemental Dignifiers you only need to get a few very basic points or rules: 1. Fire (Wands) and Water (Cups) are enemies and they weaken each other. 2. Air (Swords) and Earth (Pentacles) are enemies and they weaken each other. 3. All other combinations are friendly and strengthen each other. 4. Fire (Wands) and Air (Swords) are active (yang, male) 5. Water (Cups) and Earth (Pentacles) are passive (yin, female) That's all I need -- and my sometimes rickety intuition and ability to stop, look, and see what's in front of me. Dr Mojo

Al Si'ra	10 Jun 2005
It's very interesting yet i find it too mathematical too systematical..I mean why wands and cups are enemies..I don't think so..for ex when wands and cups appear in a relationship spread i think they might complement each other pretty well one is fire the other is the emotions..fire+emotions= love,passion etc...so i think they might as well support eachother..and same goes with swords and pentacles..for ex 7 of pents-2 of swords= hesitation of moving forward-crossroads..So i think it rather depends on the intution and the meanings of the cards...But then i might be too dumb to realize the elemental significance in cards..So i will check all the links mentioned above and educate myself on the issue LOL :)

rcb30872	10 Jun 2005
Don't know what to say about this, except for it makes sense in a weird sort of way. Edited to include in regards to what DrMojo was saying Bec

Al Si'ra	10 Jun 2005
Oops; i forgot to say...I do use elements in my readings and yes in same cases i do agree that the wands and the cups are enemies for ex when analysing an on-going process if wands appear in a reading,then things are moving fast but if cups come beside it than yes it weakens the power of the wands..Same goes with pents and swords..Looking from this perspective i see that swords and wands are friends since they are fast&active etc..and cups and pents are indeed much slower and passive..esp. when asking a question concerning a process (a time-frame of when things will take place) then the elements get into the game..But otherwise i think it could be a little restricting..maybe.

DrMojo	10 Jun 2005
Tarot is about energy. Suits are about energy. The way the suits relate one to the other in a spread reflect the rules stated -- fire (wands) and water (cups) and not in harmony and are, in effect, in opposition. Air (Swords) and Earth (pentacles) are the same way. Supportive cards, further, be passive or active in their influence which can deepen a reading every farther. Many people would say the influence within the spread of the nearby cards in determining whether a particular card is presenting itself as positive, neutral or negative makes far more sense than memorizing meanings for cards that happen to be reversed because of the way they are dealt. While I understand my presentation wasn't the clearest :) my point remains. For me and only for me, as far as I'm concerned, using traditional concept of elemental dignitaries and not having to rely on reversals makes for a very clean, concise and creative reading. I apologize for having presented a snippet of the blog entry and having chosen one that didn't explain as clearly as it should have. Dr. Mojo

Maelin	13 Jun 2005
Interesting idea - and I'm always on the lookout for principles to apply - I'm not good at just letting the intuitive meanings come through - actually requires intuition! I wonder how the spread chosen affects the rules? What happens to cards that are on top of each other? In a celtic cross, for example, how would two cards of the same suit interact if they crossed each other? Would you need to read all the cards around the central diad as dignifying each other? Last question - doea a major play into this set of rules too? Interesting additional layer of meaning to consider I think. Thanks

DrMojo	14 Jun 2005
Maelin wrote: I wonder how the spread chosen affects the rules? What happens to cards that are on top of each other? In a celtic cross, for example, how would two cards of the same suit interact if they crossed each other? Would you need to read all the cards around the central diad as dignifying each other? Last question - doea a major play into this set of rules too? I'll answer from my point of view and the style I use. First of all, linear layouts (dealt 1 - ? in a straight line) work very well because you look at the interactions between cards 1 and 2, then how 2 affects 3, how 3 affects 4, etc. etc. With that in mind, crossed cards most certainly will be affected. Let us assume there are two cards in such a spread -- Ace of Wands and Knight of Cups. The energy of these two cards -- water and fire -- are quite negative, resulting in heightened tension. One person might be very "on fire" and ambitious while the other person (or side) might be prone to some of the more negative traits of the Knight of Cups -- overbearing, emotionally manipulating, etc. I don't use the "classic" Celtic Spread very much at all because it doesn't really lend itself to my style of reading. What I might do is do the first part as linear -- cross two cards, then lay down 4 in a row, then start the "staff" part going upwards and make use of the elementals along both lines and with the crossed cards. Practically speaking, I usually do a horseshoe type of spread because I find I can have a number of cards AND easy access to groupings or a "path" for the elementals and that makes for better readings. With Majors, there are two approaches. Many people feel a Major Arcana always trumps Minor. I suppose that can make sense to some people, but I personally don't see it that way. Instad, there is a traditional listing/assignment of elements to Major cards just as there are elements assigned to Wands, Cups, Pentacles and Swords. Perhaps this will be helpful (Showing both RWS and the Thoth designations): Fool: Air Magician: Air High Priestess: Water Empress: Earth Emperor: Fire Hierophant: Earth Lovers: Air Chariot: Water Strength/Lust: Fire Hermit: Earth Fortune: Fire Justice: Air Hanged Man: Water Death: Water Art/Temperance: Fire Devil: Earth Tower: Fire Star: Air Moon: Water Sun: Fire Aeon/Judgement: Fire Universe/World: Earth The last part of the puzzle (and there aren't that many pieces!) would be the court cards. Each one has actually two elements assigned to it -- not only Wands/Swords/Pentacles/Cups (Fire/Air/Earth/Water) but the ranking -- Kings are Fire, Queens are Water, Knights are Air, Pages are Earth. I think each reader has to decide what he or she is comfortable with. For me, these guidelines are an excellent beginning that makes use of the 5 Rules that I mentioned a couple of postings back. Hope this helps, I'm happy to see any feedback. Dr. Mojo

Sinner	14 Jun 2005
Quote: 4.A card between two cards that are contrary to each other is not affected much by either of those cards. This basically means that if 2 cards on either end of a certain card are of opposite element, then they cancel each other out and the overall effect on the card in question is neutral. So say you are looking at ace of swords. If its surrounded by ace of cups and ace of wands - fire and water conflict and the effect of surrounding elements are zero. I think overall, you have to look at each card individually, assert its element, find out which elements its surrounded by and then compare the sum total of supporting elements against opposing ones to determine if its dignified or not. Personally, I don't think its practical to get into a state about this for every reading, it can be very complex, especially if you're using multi-layered spreads and defining majors as haveing "higher elements". I'd refer to it only if theres an obvious significance in the elemental link.

DrMojo	14 Jun 2005
Sinner: My mistake. The original posting with 4 rules I don't really buy, but wanted discussion. Then, it morphed and the later entry with the 5 rules and the most recent one more perfectly show my own reading technique. Difficult?? This is amazingly easy. It produces far more detailed, sharper and better readings, not a single doubt about it. The small addition to that -- this applies to me and my style. But can you take a hopelessly complex, convoluted spread and make this system of looking at cards work? No, of course not. It takes a little bit of forethought and design. Then again, the more of that one does, the better the results, no matter what technique. DrMojo

Sinner	14 Jun 2005
I guess thats true, its just that in the past, when I've tried to use it I ended up getting confused most of the time. Since I tried it with the Thoth which its recommended to read the elements of each element with it. There were so many combinations for a particular spread where cards could appear at the bottom or top of a card as well as side to side, it became difficult to get a definate dignity when it mattered like in a yes/nol spread. Though its probably much easier on a line spread so in that case it could be useful.

DrMojo	14 Jun 2005
Ah, Sinner, yes. I think you're exactly right. Many existing spreads simply lend themselves to working well with Elementals. That's the personal choice involved. Since, for me, they work sp well I'm certainly willing to adjust spreads and the way I lay out the cards or name the card positions because it makes for a so much better read. At lunch, sometimes, I sit at a table and lay down two cards at a time and work with the symbols and the elements, just to study. Anyway, they work wonderfully on 3 or 5 card spreads naturally, as well as larger horseshoe spreads. Beyond that, it takes a little tweaking or it won't work at all, at least for me. DrMojo

The How's This For Elemental Dignifiers Made Simple? thread was originally posted on 07 Jun 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.