Knights and their armour

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 04 Jun 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

mythos	04 Jun 2005
I was sitting around thinking about the knights a couple of ... er ... nights ago (I can't belief I just wrote that!), and the fact that they are wandering along or racing off here and there without their face pieces down ... there is a word for that, but I can't think of it at the moment. I thought, what a great way to get a sword or lance in your face. Then today, at Tarot Cafe, I was looking at Emerald Girl's Gilded Tarot, and lo and behold ... face armour down, faces covered. My immediate sense was one of feeling of discomfort that they were hidden, unknown in some way. They could be any of those mythological women who disguised themselves by dressing as men and rode off to war. Emeraldgirl thought of Joan d'Arc ... who of course was not mythological, in spite of the mythology built up around here. I had an image of one of the characters from the Rohan in LoTRs ... not deck or film, but book, or Jill in Katherine Kerr's Daggerspell series. Another thought ... apart from the obvious protective meanings for armour, is that, by and large, knights were young men, filled with adolescent fervour with its concommittent sense of immortality - the ultimate protection, who are still growing. They are in a state of change, and are not yet 'revealed' in their adult form. What this all means at 3.10am after falling asleep on the couch hours ago, is not yet apparent to me. I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on how being masked affects your interpretation of the knights? Have you seen other decks in which the knights are masked by their facial armour? - still can't think of the name ... grrrrr! And why it is that in most (all other?) decks the knights generally do have their faces exposed? There are probably a heap more questions I could come up with if my synapses were all connected. Mostly, I am curious about people's observations! mythos

Ace	04 Jun 2005
Try Face plate. I don't have many other thoughts on this, I use the Robin Wood in the past and I believe all the knights were face-plate open. I have no experience with the Gilded Ace

Al Si'ra	04 Jun 2005
I am not sure if it is anyway related to your post but i almost ALWAYS see Knight of Pentacles as a person who's wearing a mask-who's hiding their true personality-who's hiding true feelings- or who is rather scared to show their true feelings-they are always protecting themselves from external things esp. emotions..When represented as person in the reading i kinda feel that this person is not the right person for the querent esp...But i'm trying to be more open-minded nowadays about this Knight..I have harsh thoughts about him.. LOL :)

mythos	05 Jun 2005
My feelings about the Knight of Pents have generally been that he is staid and boring, but like the guy in the office who starts earlier and stays later than others, plodding along, will gossip aboth others in the coffee room. So, yep, definitely some of those negative connotations. I had a look at a heap of decks that I have ... not all ... and not the Robin Wood ... which I don't have ... and it seems that face plates are generally up. I had such a strong emotional response to them being down ... despite my previous wondering about them. I guess I don't know whether that is a 'gilded tarot' response, or a more generalised response similar to trying to have a conversation with someone who has mirrored sunglasses on. Curious! mythos

Fudugazi	05 Jun 2005
mythos wrote: Another thought ... apart from the obvious protective meanings for armour, is that, by and large, knights were young men, filled with adolescent fervour with its concommittent sense of immortality - the ultimate protection, who are still growing. They are in a state of change, and are not yet 'revealed' in their adult form. I love your discussion of the masking of knights! Yes, very interesting. Masking the body is a way of revealing the spirit, traditionally (in theatre, etc). I just want to temper some of the above-quoted view on knights, which is true in the RWS, but not in the Thoth. Among Marseille students, there is one view that the knight is the one who has reached beyond the worldly lessons of the suit embodied in the King: they are also the servants - in the higher sense - of the Lady, the Queen, their gentil knight, chevalier servant. And the highest of the suit, therefore, is the Queen. Masking, then, would mean hiding their faces and bodies from their Lady, allowing them to show a less visible side of themselves, perhaps? It is in jousting combat that the knight showed his most primal and ritualistic side, and the poetry of movement which he dedicated to his Lady.

Moongold	05 Jun 2005
mythos wrote: My feelings about the Knight of Pents have generally been that he is staid and boring, but like the guy in the office who starts earlier and stays later than others, plodding along, will gossip aboth others in the coffee room. So, yep, definitely some of those negative connotations. I had a look at a heap of decks that I have ... not all ... and not the Robin Wood ... which I don't have ... and it seems that face plates are generally up. I had such a strong emotional response to them being down ... despite my previous wondering about them. I guess I don't know whether that is a 'gilded tarot' response, or a more generalised response similar to trying to have a conversation with someone who has mirrored sunglasses on. Curious! mythos Well, mythos, how different individual preceptions are. Admittledly I'm looking at the Universal Waite at the moment, but the drawings are pretty similar to PCS's work. Knight Pentacles is a fairly handsome guy. He is holding out that Pentacle to whoever in a fairly open way :). Pentacles are the sensuous suit - beat the others hands down. He looks pretty good in that silver armor with the red cloak and the red trappings on that super black horse. He may not be as intellectual as the Knight Swords but he's a different character altogether. You're right - he's the kind of guy who's be reliable and stay around - not racing around chaotically like Knight Wands or importantly like Knight Swords. Knight Cups isn't bad but I'd prefer Knight Pentacles any day. The Thoth Knights are almost unrecognisable as humans but so are many of the characters in that deck. Knights also have a different role in the deck. I find that once I understand something of the spirit of each deck I can accommodate quite easily. But I guess having their visors down makes the Knights of which you speak a little like those guys who wear sun glasses all the time - a little freaky?

Moonbow*	05 Jun 2005
Knights are in service to the Queen and King, their armour is for their own bodily protection and by nature of their role, are warriors of a sort, and are prepared at notice to defend the Realm. If their face shield is down then they are ready for action. Isn't that their role afterall? To me it speaks more of their position, their job and then the more personal qualities come from the element or suit.

mythos	07 Jun 2005
My apologies to all of you who have responded to this thread. I'm in the midst of a health crisis at the moment. When things get steadier, I'll respond. mythos

Emeraldgirl	07 Jun 2005
Hi Mythos, Was going to do a post on this but saw you beat me to it. I was thinking about it and I think it may be that way to shield the negative aspects of their personalities. I had a look at a couple of the other decks I own and didn't notice any that have their visors down.

Moongold	07 Jun 2005
mythos wrote: My apologies to all of you who have responded to this thread. I'm in the midst of a health crisis at the moment. When things get steadier, I'll respond. mythos Hope you get well soon. Keep in touch with us so we can help support you.

Emeraldgirl	07 Jun 2005
mythos wrote: My apologies to all of you who have responded to this thread. I'm in the midst of a health crisis at the moment. When things get steadier, I'll respond. mythos Hi Mythos, Hope you feel better soon :)

mythos	09 Jun 2005
First time I've used multiple quotes in a post ... strains my computering abilities ... but always fun to learn! Al Si'ra wrote: I am not sure if it is anyway related to your post but i almost ALWAYS see Knight of Pentacles as a person who's wearing a mask-who's hiding their true personality-who's hiding true feelings- or who is rather scared to show their true feelings-they are always protecting themselves from external things esp. emotions :) That is an interesting observation, she says whipping through her deck to get a better look at the Original WS knights - closest deck to hand. I see that all but the Knight of Swords actually have armour around their chins, though their visors are up. I can see why you would get the impression that the K of Pentacle's visor is down. There is a darkness in the overall colouring which definitely gives a sense of weight (not Waite - huh! very bad tarot humour!) The figure's face is also turned away a little. Helvetica wrote: I Masking the body is a way of revealing the spirit, traditionally (in theatre, etc). I just want to temper some of the above-quoted view on knights, which is true in the RWS, but not in the Thoth. Among Marseille students, there is one view that the knight is the one who has reached beyond the worldly lessons of the suit embodied in the King: they are also the servants - in the higher sense - of the Lady, the Queen, their gentil knight, chevalier servant. And the highest of the suit, therefore, is the Queen. Masking, then, would mean hiding their faces and bodies from their Lady, allowing them to show a less visible side of themselves, perhaps? It is in jousting combat that the knight showed his most primal and ritualistic side, and the poetry of movement which he dedicated to his Lady. I wasn't aware of masking as a way of revealing the spirit in theatre ... I'm a bit of a pleb. Last time I went to the theatre was in 1969. For me, nudity has seemed symbolic of revealing the spirit. I guess that is the thing with symbols, they carry multiple and sometimes contradictory levels of meaning depending on the viewer. In spite of much reading of history and literature, I hadn't thought about tarot knights in terms of their relationships of dedication to their ladies. Still so new to tarot that I am, as yet, still in that process of integrating whole areas of interest ... smacks self on side of head as reminder that tarot IS life, in all it glory and grubbiness, historical, current and future, multiple perceptions, literature, art, doing the weekly shopping etc. Moongold wrote: Well, mythos, how different individual preceptions are. Admittledly I'm looking at the Universal Waite at the moment, but the drawings are pretty similar to PCS's work. Knight Pentacles is a fairly handsome guy. He is holding out that Pentacle to whoever in a fairly open way :). Pentacles are the sensuous suit - beat the others hands down. He looks pretty good in that silver armor with the red cloak and the red trappings on that super black horse. He may not be as intellectual as the Knight Swords but he's a different character altogether. You're right - he's the kind of guy who's be reliable and stay around - not racing around chaotically like Knight Wands or importantly like Knight Swords. Knight Cups isn't bad but I'd prefer Knight Pentacles any day. The Thoth Knights are almost unrecognisable as humans but so are many of the characters in that deck. Knights also have a different role in the deck. I find that once I understand something of the spirit of each deck I can accommodate quite easily. But I guess having their visors down makes the Knights of which you speak a little like those guys who wear sun glasses all the time - a little freaky? Having so much earth in my natal chart, I figure that I should live in some deep subterranean earthy haven, I find myself attracted to those fiery unreliable types. Might explain my three divorces LOL, as well as my feelings about the Knight of Pentacles. A projection, no doubt. I am disgustingly reliable, and have been known to gossip on occasion (ahem!) When it comes to the Thoth ... it just gives me the willies. This is not about Crowley's reputation because, when I first encountered the deck in about 1976, I wasn't aware of his reputation, and still I shuddered at the imagery. A couple of years ago, I bought it, figuring it was time to confront my demons ... so to speak ... looked at it once and put it away. So, I hadn't recalled visors on the knights, who would be king ...! Moonbow* wrote: Knights are in service to the Queen and King, their armour is for their own bodily protection and by nature of their role, are warriors of a sort, and are prepared at notice to defend the Realm. If their face shield is down then they are ready for action. Isn't that their role afterall? To me it speaks more of their position, their job and then the more personal qualities come from the element or suit. Makes sense. Definitely time to dig out all my decks, with all the knights and do some comparisons. Moongold wrote: Hope you get well soon. Keep in touch with us so we can help support you. Thanks. I had a cancer scare ... but extra breast screen and ultrasound have shown that it was only a scare.... thank the goddess! Both age and genetics were not on my side ... and all my anxiety-reducing strategies took flight. I tend to withdraw in times of trouble ... do what needs to be done... then unload after the fact. I guess it comes from being a numerological 1, and a Hermit by nature. If it had been cancer ... the whole world would have known. Thank you ... it is good to know that support comes from all kinds of places. Do you know, the thing that I was most concerned about? Missing the conference! Priorities!!!!!!!!!!!!! mythos

memorexe	12 Jun 2005
Hi Mythos-- Several points I've garnered about Knights over the years-- Usually they are oriented towards the left--to do with their affiliation with occult forces--this needn't always be negative--after all it is Galahad and Lancelot chase after the Grail--not King Arthur. I've never owned a Crowley deck--but I have used Thoth on occasion--my understanding of the Knights vs. the Kings in that configuration, have to do with the Industrial Revolution: The Kings represent the landed gentry, people who have inherited land and title, and the Knights are the working man--entepreneurs, inventors, stockbrokers --people who have to invent and maintain a means of generating income. And while the Knight of Pentacles might not be my type--I'd hardly call them staid: dependable yes, extremely sensual, even more so... Stay in good health Mythos! memorexe

wizzle	13 Jun 2005
Here are some websites about modern day knights: http://necrobones.com/knights/ http://www.pirateplanet.com/Bristol_Faire_01.html Note the lady with the falcon's on the second website. She reminded me of the 9 of pentacles. and some stuff on the Knights Hospitaller and Templar if for some reason you need to know this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller http://www.rekts.freeservers.com/TEMPLARS_PG1.html And don't forget about the knight in chess. His move is enigmatic. I'm sure that fits into tarot in some way. Mythos, I had the same strong reaction to the Gilded knights as you did. And I had those feelings too when I first saw the Chariot in the Thoth deck. I envision stories like Lohengrin or Scott's tale about the unknown knight. In this role, he is an unexpected savior fighting for purity and truth. p.s. I'm so happy your health news was good.

Thuvia	13 Jun 2005
Cleaned the cheesy poof dust off of my hands and went and looked at the knights in my guilded deck :) I am still learning this deck, so took the opportunity to look at these cards closely. Imo, the visor being down takes away a certain amount of individuality from the 'person' in the card. By removing that personality, that makes room for the card to be more about the ideas behind the suit without letting human characteristics get in the way. Less about the character of a persons nature, more about the charater of the suit. Not sure I am being clear, the distinction is ambiguous to me at the moment, sorry. I also noticed that all but the knight of cups bears a shield, nor does he carry anything than can be construed as a weapon. Plus only 2 have stirrups... hmmm lots more to think about with these guys than I originally noticed, thanks for bringing them to question for me :)

mythos	13 Jun 2005
Thanks! I think I'm a bit old to explore the sensuality of the pentacle knight ... no, I FEEL too old. Requires way too much energy. Next life time! I'm taking a list with me when I go, burying all my books and decks in a treasure chest, and taking a map, in which X (of course) marks the spot, so I can dig 'em up next time around. Thanks for the links. I have read a number of books about the various orders of knights from that period ... got fascinated with the whole dark, middle etc ages, crusades etc. Seeing the pictures was lovely. I see what you mean about the one with the falcon. I feel a particular connection of the 9 of pentacles ... and like the snail, I have been known to carry my home on my back (backpack) as I move slowly through the world. Haven't made it to Europe yet. I suspect that if a bunch of us dressed up as knights and there ladies among the gum trees here in Australia, we'd all be carted off to the nuthouse ... which is probably about the oldest building we have. Not a castle in sight. Pity ... before I leave this earth ... I WILL leave the colonies and take the Grand Tour. Seriously, this has been a discussion from which I have gained some more insight into the knights both generally, and the Gilded ones in particular. I am one of those people who has created a huge block about the court cards which is more of my own making, than anything else, I'm sure. Thanks all, mythos

The Knights and their armour thread was originally posted on 04 Jun 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.