Thoth/Waite-Rider Correlation between Court Cards

Thread originally posted on the Aeclectic Tarot Forum on 19 Jun 2005, and now archived in the Forum Library.

tonto	19 Jun 2005
What is the correlation between the court cards when matching the Thoth deck to the Rider-Waite?

Lillie	19 Jun 2005
This is how it appears to me. RWS king = Thoth Prince RWS Queen = Thoth Queen RWS Knight = Thoth Knight RWS Page = Thoth Princess But all the Thoth courts are in motion. The knight becomes the prince by marrying the princess, who becomes the queen who gives birth to the princess. The Prince dies and is reborn as the knight who weds the princess. (or something like that.) Knights are on horses. Princes/kings are on thrones (or thrones with wheels) Queens sit. Page/princess stands.

wizzle	19 Jun 2005
this thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=42423 and this one http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=12692 have tons of information and links to answer your question. I agree with Lillie, but there are other views.

tonto	20 Jun 2005
lillie wrote: RWS king = Thoth Prince RWS Queen = Thoth Queen RWS Knight = Thoth Knight RWS Page = Thoth Princess Thanks Lillie, that makes sense although there must be more to the reason why the Thoth deck is in motion although I like the theme of continuous progression, joining and rebirth. wizzle wrote: this thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=42423 and this one http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=12692 have tons of information and links to answer your question. I agree with Lillie, but there are other views. Wiz, I'll check out the links and appreciate you taking time to post them.

Lillie	20 Jun 2005
The reason the Thoth courts are in motion is because of the correlation between them and the tetragrammaton, (yod, he, vau, he) read all about it in the book of Thoth. As Waite came out of the same tradition, I expect that he saw his courts in the same way. However, because of who he was and when he was writing, he seems to have chosen the conceal many things that Crowley made explicit. Regardless, it really dosn't matter if you are reading them. It's just the same as people anyway. I was someones daughter, now I am someones mother. We all change, we are all in motion. We are born, we live, we die.... The wheel turns.

Sulis	21 Jun 2005
I thought that the Thoth Knight corresponded to the RWS king and the Thoth Prince to the RWS Knight.....like this: Thoth Knight (fire) = RWS King Thoth Queen (water)= RWS Queen Thoth Prince (air) = RWS Knight Thoth Princess (earth) = RWS Page Love Sulis xx

PlatinumDove	21 Jun 2005
Why is the Queen water and the princess earth? I've always thought of queens as (hopefully) more grounded than the flighty, young, emotional princesses.

Sulis	21 Jun 2005
Hi PlatinumDove, These correspondences aren't set in stone - best to use those that mean the most to you. I think the correspondences I've used are the most widely used. Thirteen explains it better than me : http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/queens.shtml Personally I use the elemental correspondences used by Paul Fenton-Smith as these resonate the best with me. These are: Page - air - beginnings Knight - fire - action Queen - water - deepening understanding /emotional maturity King - earth - maturity and using the element in the real world. Sorry to have hijacked this thread. Love Sulis xx

Aeon418	21 Jun 2005
Sulis wrote: Thoth Knight (fire) = RWS King Thoth Queen (water)= RWS Queen Thoth Prince (air) = RWS Knight Thoth Princess (earth) = RWS Page That's the system I use and the elemental attribution that Crowley used as well. I'm not 100% sure, but I can't remember A E Waite ever mentioning elemental attributions to the court cards in The Pictorial Key to the Tarot. The Thoth Knights, being Fire, are active. Therefore they are on horses. They "go". The Queens, water, are more stable and calm. The total opposite of the Knight. The Prince's, who are the combination of Knight and Queen, are a bit of both. That's why they are riding chariots. You could say it's the Queens throne being pulled by the Knights horse.

similia	21 Jun 2005
My understanding was that Crowley says his Thoth Knights are equivalent to the Golden Dawn's Kings, as the GD Kings ride horses and represent yod/fire. So the question is are RWS's Kings equivalent to the Golden Dawn King's also, or perhaps changed for the exoteric deck (as Princess was changed to Page, both alterations in line with TdM decks which were public knowledge and not an esoteric secret at the time)? Interstingly I'm reading Wang's "Qabalistic Tarot" at the moment, and while he discusses the RWS Knights in a group with the Crowley and GD Prince's he also says they are not equivalent. *similia says, while adding confusion to the fire* :)

Emily	21 Jun 2005
[quote=Sulis] Thoth Knight (fire) = RWS King Thoth Queen (water)= RWS Queen Thoth Prince (air) = RWS Knight Thoth Princess (earth) = RWS Page This is how I read the Thoth Courts too - although I tend to put the Queen first - Queen, Knight, Prince, Princess. It may not be right but its always worked for me. :)

PlatinumDove	22 Jun 2005
Sulis, your interpretation is logical to me. It makes sense age-wise as well. Although the Thoth-RW correspondences don't really match up elementally. Shouldn't it be... RW Page = air = Thoth Prince RW Knight = fire = Thoth King RW Queen = water = Thoth Princess RW King = earth = Thoth Queen Or am I too muddle-brained tonight?

similia	23 Jun 2005
Also now I'm thinking about the astrological relationships... Could this explain why some decks swap the Fixed and Mutable positions...??? E.g. in Thoth the Prince Disks is (mostly) Taurus, but in RWS some people say the Knight, some say the King (the King havaing the Taurus emblem on his throne) etc.. Perhaps we should link this thread to the one about questions you'd like to ask these guys :D

Sulis	23 Jun 2005
PlatinumDove wrote: Sulis, your interpretation is logical to me. It makes sense age-wise as well. Although the Thoth-RW correspondences don't really match up elementally. Shouldn't it be... RW Page = air = Thoth Prince RW Knight = fire = Thoth King RW Queen = water = Thoth Princess RW King = earth = Thoth Queen Or am I too muddle-brained tonight? Hi PlatinumDove, Not sure about Thoth as I don't actually use that deck. The correspondences I gave are the ones I use with RWS style decks - they work for me. You may be interested in this book - 'The Tarot Revealed; A simple guide to unlocking the secrets of tarot' by Paul Fenton Smith http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0731805259/026-2249650-4794864 I find his way of interprating the Court cards (he uses the elemental corresoondences I described) really makes sense. Love Sulis xx

The Thoth/Waite-Rider Correlation between Court Cards thread was originally posted on 19 Jun 2005 in the Using Tarot Cards board, and is now archived in the Forum Library. Read the active threads in Using Tarot Cards, or read more archived threads.