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02-05-2011 19:15
[QUOTE=Aeon418]Most objections that I see about attribution systems are intellectually based, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.[/QUOTE]I think that proves my point. :laugh:

02-05-2011 22:32
[QUOTE=RLG]Suffice it to say that a simpler explanation of Liber AL 1:57 is that the name of the Trump XVII needs to be changed, not the esoteric attributions.[/quote]Ok then, what's the new name? I'm all ears. :)

Crowley never re-named Atu XVII. And yet he's the one who was supposedly meant to reveal it.

Heh is the letter of revelation.

02-05-2011 22:34
Personally I've enjoyed Jim's analysis of the Court cards the most.

02-05-2011 23:06
RLG's post was very good. I agree with it almost entirely.

03-05-2011 05:06
[QUOTE=graspee]RLG's post was very good. I agree with it almost entirely.[/QUOTE]But what about the rest of Liber Theta? Or does an historical quibble and a difference of opinion on a bit of technical data vitiate the whole thing? Or am I the only one that read past the introduction? :laugh:

03-05-2011 05:13
[QUOTE=Aeon418]But what about the rest of Liber Theta? Or does an historical quibble and a difference of opinion on a bit of technical data vitiate the whole thing? Or am I the only one that read past the introduction? :laugh:[/QUOTE]

It is excellent in every way. My misgivings about Tzaddi were in no way intended as a criticism of the document.

03-05-2011 08:13

I'm a little more sober today. I did not criticize anything beyond the introduction because I was trying to focus my double-vision on a couple issues raised at the beginning of the document. Liber Theta has plenty of useful material in it, and any quibbles I have would be a topic for a separate post.

My predilection is for the Star to be related to Venus, and then the two vessels might be Venus as morning and evening star. The main star depicted on the card is often seen as the star of Bethlehem, heralding the birth of the messiah, who called himself the bright morning star in Revelation 22:16.

As for the new name of Atu XVII, my own interpretation would be, for English, the plural "Stars", and for classic Greek, the word Galaxias, (English Galaxy) which equals 306, or 17 x 18, and Atu 17 is the 18th in sequence when the Fool is placed at the beginning. Galaxias means 'milky', from the term Galaxias Kuklos, the milky circle, aka the Milky Way. Since it is a circle, and surrounds the Earth, the milk being poured from its vessels is from above and then below, as depicted in the Star atu. Renaming Atu XVII as the Stars or the Galaxy aligns this card with Nuit, as "infinite space and the infinite stars thereof"

The reason that Heh and Tzaddi can switch fairly easily is shown in the method of ATBaSh, and there are certainly correlations to be drawn from the feminine number 5 that correlate with the Star card also, such as "the shape of my star is the five pointed star". It's all in how you want to approach it. One could switch Heh and Tzaddi by classic methodology, regardless of any verse found in Liber AL. One can also switch Bet and Shin, Gimel and Resh, etc.

The fact that the feminine letter Heh doesn't seem to correlate well with the Emperor is just another piece of evidence that the Tarot was not originally designed with the qabalah in mind. Some of the G.D. correspondences work well, and some do not. A much better fit could be found if there was no insistence on a linear match-up between the alef-bet and the tarot sequence.


Always Wondering
04-05-2011 04:06
This will keep me busy for a while. A year or two just on the Major Arcana. His meditation patterns for the Minor Arcana look interesting. There didn't seem to be any explaination to the pattern choice in my first quick read but maybe when I get a minute to lay them out it will make some sense.
Lots of information. It seems very complete. This is going to the front of my reading list.

Thanks for the link.


05-05-2011 10:57
Seriously? The ONLY sensible explanation is that it was all hidden? I beg to differ; the much more sensible explanation is that there was no such qabalistic content in the tarot, since there is no mention of it by writers who felt free to write on many other topics of esoterica. It's easy to say that there is no evidence because it was all kept secret, since there is no way to disprove that. It's much more difficult to come up with positive evidence for such an assertion of qabalah being wedded to the tarot from the outset.

No, you get the point all wrong. In fact most of the Tarot world does. The argument is not that Tarot was made by Qabalists or that Tarot Readers lean on Qabala for interpretation. The argument is that Qabalists, since at least the 16th century have used Tarot and it was a replacement for things they used before it, and precursor to things used afterwards.

As for the debate it is Christian in origin, ever since the writings of Pico della Mirandola, who first combined Magick with Qabala and reconciled Neoplatonic thought and Christian Faith, it is clear Qabala has been openly employed in Christian thought, in total or part. This means since the 1400's Qabala has been employed directly in relation to the EXACT notions of Christianity that inspired Tarot. And Christian Qabalists were applying it to everything they could. So among the world of Italy of its time, you have Mirandola promoting Christian Qabala, especially to artists, and you have cards displaying those same virtues. Along with these come all the parts of the Natural Philosopher movement and thus Astrology and other guidances of Magick.

The connection is easy to make that artists might have interest in Tarot and Christian Values might also know or be Magicians, and these correspond to Qabala that they are learning about through the works of Mirandola. This dates them to around the same time as the creation of Tarot. If you think some of the Magicians of their days were not already using Tarot - you simply do them little credit. We have been working with any tools we can find for as long as we can, and the first thing we do is dissect them to learn their nature.

Most would probably not use cards though, because of the need for metals and the power of wax imprints from woodcuts.

This is why Crowley created the Thoth Deck, to make a Tarot deck for magicians by magicians, and not simply a borrowing of a earlier tool from people who may have had no capacity for magick or clinging to inefficient or obsolete correspondences or conventions.

[quote]All the evidence we have so far points to tarot being a card game appropriated by occultists for their own purposes. there's certainly nothing wrong with that, and yes, the proof is in the use of the cards. one can train themselves to use any system of associations; that doesn't mean that they were intended by the creators of Tarot. So call a spade a spade and just admit that we're taking archetypal forms and using them in a flexible system to our best ability and trying to make it meaningful in our praxis.[/quote]

I further admit it was likely done back as far as the origins of Tarot and sure, and was done with many things before Tarot, so there is no way to presume it would not be done with this. In fact, it is more likely Magicians were substituting Tarot decks well before the works of Levi, and at least for some - it was probably a tool to consider, as Qabala was already married to the very same Christian virtues as the Tarot.

I do not think we are taking archetypal forms and playing with psycholgical play-doh. I think when we are tapping into actual magic, it is NOT simply inside some jungian context. That is the outer order self-help model, not the inner order real contact with objective spirits. I do not know if everyone gets to that level or not, but to me, there is more than Self and Other dynamics that most lean on. This is not para-psychology or auto-hypnosis unless you are tapping into nothing but wishful thinking.

As for the Qabala, only the lesser part is written.

05-05-2011 13:36
The Sepher Yetzirah clearly correlates He with Aries and Tzaddi with Aquarius. I suppose that since they permuted the planetary correlations of the double letters, they might as well mess with the simple letters as well. To make things even easier, why not just ignore the Sepher Yetzirah altogether?

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