Visually Looking for the Planets in TdM [Marseille]

Rosanne

We posted at the same time and you answered my thoughts perfectly.~Rosanne
 

jmd

I like Melanchollic's Geomantic correlative suggestions, and something that I do not think has been looked at carefully enough as, as he says, a possible further influence on the period and its likely impact on designs deriving from the times and place - especially by anyone having broad magical and esoteric interests.

Still, an influence is just that, an influence, and would personally not thereby 'see' in the Pope, for example, an intended image influence from considerations of "acquisitio" and Jupiter - though there may very well be symbolic connections that may be made - as with most cards. The other 'problem' is that of the numerical correlation between the number of geomantic figures and the Atouts.

Nonetheless, I do accept that this, along with other considerations of the time, would have played an indirect influence.

Taking Ayumi's sensible suggestion, reflections on the Papesses would have lead to reflections of the place and 'proper' relations of nuns and the Virgin (or virgins) and hence lead to thoughts of Venus. It is, however, another step, and not necessarily a warranted one, to 'see' in the Papesse Venus. A relation arising out of reflection is not an identity between the two concepts.

Similarly, when we look at those wonderful representations of the planets and their 'children' (which have been mentioned a number of times also in past threads, usually as they may apply to specific cards), again what is of import is not only the similarities, but the significant differences.

When I look at William Lilly, for example, I can certainly see into the description for planets (well or ill aspected) various parts of card imagery, but what is also significant is that there is no clear and singular consistency. To me, again this shows that astrological considerations form part of the backdrop or groundswell out of which tarot arises, but not as direct reflection.

Having said that, however, there is possibly another way or manner in which to consider the planets within the Tarot de Marseille: not as each and everyone represented, but rather as alluded to by reference to only some.

For example, representation of the Star(s), Moon and Sun leads to astronomical/astrological reflections. One does not need to carefully depict all seven traditional planets to allude to them. Similarly, the zodiac is likewise alluded to by hinting (or even intentionally representing) Cancer on the Moon card imagery, of Gemini on the Sun, or perhaps even of either Virgo and Leo (as adjacent each other) in Strength, or Herakles and the Lion as asterism. These bring to mind not only those that are in fact depicted, but the many that are not.

This provides for an economy of depiction that has its own inner tension, and that may be guided by something quite distinct to the 'completion' of the deck such as in the Mantegna (non-tarot) cards or the Minchiate.

So the question that may well be asked is not only where and how a planet may be depicted within the Tarot de Marseille, but whether all the planets are visually depicted, and whether it is necessary to do so in order to call them all to mind.

Of course this does not prevent various attributions to be made between, for example, Mars and the Chariot, or between Venus and the Papesse, or Jupiter and the Pope, each with very good justification for allegorical reflections, rather than straightforward visual depiction.
 

Ayumi

Your comments about Tarot being something for the 'common people' is very true, and very important, Rosanne.

But we should be careful not to fall into the trap a lot of modern people make in thinking that in "olden times" you were either a filthy rich nobleman who spoke in perfect verse, or a just plain filthy peasant serf rotting from plague, digging in a field all night and day wondering what "an alphabet" looked like.

E.M.W. Tillyard's The Elizabethan World Picture is a good little read that gives a realistic view of the 16th century.

Also let's not forget woodcuts like Erhard Schon's 1515 horoscope wheel shown on the cover of Paul Huson's Mystical Origins of the Tarot, as a great example of the kind of illustrations that would have been included in the Farmer's Calendar's and Almanacs of the period.

This is one reason I avoid making any correlations between Cabbala and Tarot. Not only was Cabbala unknown to the common man unlike astrological, or to a lesser degree alchemical images, but Cabbala's importance to the mystical thinkers of the time has been greatly exaggerated by the later mystics of the 18th and 19th century.

Making well informed choices about any astrological associations really means seeing astrology as the people of the time would have. There is often a lot of confusion about the symbolism of the celestial houses (Leo, Virgo, etc.) and the mundane houses (3rd house=brothers, 9th house=journey's, etc). Things like Scorpio having ANYTHING to do with Death, was unknown in the 16th century. And the 8th house having to do with sex is completely 20th century. The zodiac signs didn't do anything traditionally. They had qualities like cardinal signs being quick to start or finish, or fixed signs being slow and stable, gender, fertileness or barrenness, voiced or mute, humane or bestial, and had associations with parts of the body. In traditional astrology the planets were the nouns, the aspects the verbs, and the signs, merely the adjectives describing the planets.

The mundane houses do not receive their meanings from the celestial house, nor from the planets which have rulership over the celestial houses. The meanings of the mundane houses is taken from the classical order of the planets themselves.

1st house (the self) = Saturn, ruler of incarnation and material nature.
2nd house (wealth) = Jupiter, ruler of prosperity.
3rd house (brothers) = Mars, ruler of brothers.
4th house (father) = Sun, ruler of fathers.
5th house (pleasure) = Venus, need I say more?
6th house (servants) = Mercury, ruler of servants.
7th house (partnerships) = Moon, ruler of marriage.
8th house (Death) = Saturn, ruler of boundaries, beginnings and ends.
9th house (God) = Jupiter, ruler of religion.
10th house (career) = Mars, ruler of impulse and conquest.
11th house (friends) = Sun, ruler of friendship
12th house (self-undoing) = Venus, excesses of pleasure causing downfall


Ayumi
 

Paul

Ayumi said:
I use Le Diable as Mars ill dignified (in a bad mood), and the Le Chariot as Mars well dignified (in a good mood).
:* Ayumi

Ayumi -- could you lay out your Majors planetary assocations? Because I assume in your system that other planets are ill- and well-dignified in their distribution through the Majors.
 

Ayumi

Hi Paul,

Well, there aren't enough 'bad' cards in the Trumps to really get a balanced system of dignified/undignified.

In a real 'sit-down-tell-my-fortune' situation I tend to see the cards as having planetary 'tendencies' more than a set of absolute correspondences.
Some cards I may associate with more than one planet, or a card may take on a certain planetary quality depending on the nature of the question. The Papess and the Empress may express either lunar energies or Venusian energy. (Ha ha. Venusian sound so SF.)

I use the Astrological spread using the general techniques of Horary astrology, including an acknowledged ascendent, and aspects. For example, a querant asks what their child's career will be (a common question in Japan). I layout 12 cards in the 12 astrological houses. The ascendent is in Pieces. To answer this question I look at the querant's child represented by the 5th house, and the 10th from the 5th, representing the child's career. The 5th house is in Cancer and Le Pendu is placed there. The 'turned' 10th is Aries with La Lune. So what can we say here. The moon is the career. The child is a girl so, of the various 'lunar careers', a cleaner or a nurse seems likely. The family is fairly wealthy, so I'd say the daughter could possibly go into nursing. Both Aries and Cancer are Cardinal signs showing that the career may not last long. Le Pendu indicates the reason may be the daughter feels 'trapped' in that line of work, so she won't last long. I'll use 'squares' or 'trines' to see if a card is well aspected or not. What I do not generally do is use planetary dignities. In the previous example, Le Pendu is a card a associate with Saturnine qualities. Saturn is in detriment in Cancer. This would make the card's all ready negative meanings worst. I rarely use dignities unless I'm unclear about something, or it really seems to be saying something about the question.

Anyway, sorry to be so long winded. A very general 'snap-shoot' of my planetary associations would look something like this:

Saturn - VIIII, XII*, XIII*.
Jupiter - V, VIII, X, sometimes XVI*
Mars - VII, XI, XV*, XVI*
Sun - IIII, XIIII, XVIIII
Venus - II*, VI, XVII
Mercury - I*, XX, XXI, sometimes XV*
Moon - Le Mat*, III, XVIII*

* poor dignity

Ayumi
 

Paul

Ayumi --

Brilliant!
I need to learn more about Horary astrology. There's a website on it (which I'm sure you've perused): http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/horary.html

I imagine that you develop very detailed and accurate readings, which appears to be the expectation in Japan.
 

kwaw

Ayumi said:
Your comments about Tarot being something for the 'common people' is very true, and very important, Rosanne.

Also let's not forget woodcuts like Erhard Schon's 1515 horoscope wheel shown on the cover of Paul Huson's Mystical Origins of the Tarot, as a great example of the kind of illustrations that would have been included in the Farmer's Calendar's and Almanacs of the period.

Yes, and Calendars and Almanacs from the very beginning of printing were common and popular. Astrological lore and numerological symbolism was ubiquitous in popular culture, exoteric not esoteric, it would be odd for such not to be in the tarot as a popular artifact and such does not necessarily imply that it was structured on the basis of such.

ErhardSchoenHoroscope.gif


The horoscope engraved by Erhard Schoen, in the houses note:

the man at his counting table with purse in second house, (traditional cosignificators Taurus and Jupiter)

the old man with stick in the 4th house (traditional cosignificators Cancer and Sun of father by day, though here the image of old man with stick would be more congruent with Saturn, significator of the 'father' by night and also of the end of things as signified by 4th house)

the children in 5th house, (traditional cosignificators Leo and Venus)

the marriage in the seventh house, (traditional cosignificators Libra and Moon)

Skeleton with scythe in 8th house, (traditional cosignificators Scorpio and Saturn)

Pope in 9 (traditional cosignificators Sagitarrius and Jupiter)

Emperor in 10 (traditional cosignificators Capricorn and Mars)

Wheel in 11 (traditional cosignificators Aquarius and Sun)

(As a side note you can also see from the above the depiction of the sign Cancer is very much like that of the moon card, more crayfish than crablike)

Making well informed choices about any astrological associations really means seeing astrology as the people of the time would have. There is often a lot of confusion about the symbolism of the celestial houses (Leo, Virgo, etc.) and the mundane houses (3rd house=brothers, 9th house=journey's, etc). Things like Scorpio having ANYTHING to do with Death, was unknown in the 16th century.

8th house (Death) = Saturn, ruler of boundaries, beginnings and ends.


Yep, I agree, but I think you overstate the case a little to say that Scorpio does not having ANYTHING to do with Death, the sign is associated with the 8th as is the planet Saturn as a cosignificator; as I wrote in previous post about the list I gave the iconographic relationship is frequently a better fit to the house of which the sign is cosignificator:

And the cosignificator of the 8th house of Death is Scorpio under which I listed it:

The Eigth House

The Estate of Men deceased, Death, its qualitiy and nature; the Wills, Legacies and Testaments of Men deceased; Dowry of the Wife. Portion of the Maid, whether much or little, easie to be obtained or with difficulty. In duels it represents the Adversaries Second; in Lawsuits the Defendants friends. What kinds of Death a Man shall dye, it signifies fear and anguish of Minde. Who shall enjoy or be heir to the Deceased.

It rules the Privy-parts. Of colours, the Green and Black. Of Signes it has Scorpio for Cosignificator, and Saturn, the Hemoroids, the Stone, Strangury, Poysons, and Bladder are ruled.

William Lilly Christian Astrology: Book I An Introduction to Astrology

While it is fairly straightforward to find correlations with the iconography of the planets any such made with signs tends to be far more of a stretch and to incorporate anachronisms. Perhaps that is because as you rightly note, the planets were considered far more significant, the emphasis on signs is a product of modern astrology.

I think you give a very clear explanation of the relationship of the planetary cosignificators to the meaning of the houses BTW; though the cycle of the sun, annual and diurnal, is also relevant of course. And your example of an astrological spread is excellent, thank you.

Kwaw
 

Rosanne

This thread has turned out to be a real treat for Mother's Day!
My views on Tarot and correspondences.....
Change your dwelling place often, for the sweetness of life consists in variety
and
Soft wax will take any impression
~Rosanne
 

Ayumi

kwaw said:
Yep, I agree, but I think you overstate the case a little to say that Scorpio does not having ANYTHING to do with Death, the sign is associated with the 8th as is the planet Saturn as a cosignificator; as I wrote in previous post about the list I gave the iconographic relationship is frequently a better fit to the house of which the sign is cosignificator:



Firstly, thanks for the picture of the before mentioned Schon engraving.

True, perhaps in the popular culture of the time people would have come to see Scorpio relating to Death due to both being in an eighth house. But I can't for the life of me think of a situation in a chart reading where Scorpio, on its own, without, Mars, its Lord (ruler) being in the mundane eighth, or at least having some reception or aspect to the eight or to Saturn, would indicate Death.

For example, let's say a man asks "Am I going to die?" The ascendent is in Scorpio, so Scorpio is the first house representing the inquirer. To find out what the inquirer's 'self' is up to, we have to see where the Lord of Scorpio is hanging out, being again Mars. We find him sitting comfortably in the 5th house in Pieces, conjunct with Venus, who is exalted (very happy) in Pieces sipping martinis. Saturn is off moping around safe from any ill influence here, so I tell the querent the chances of you dying are extremely slim, but if you do die it will be through excessive love making. :D So even with Scorpio in a very important position in this chart, and the question being specifically about death, there could be no influence here.

The influence as co-significator of the celestial house signs on the numerically corresponding mundane houses, here being Scorpio as co-significator of the eighth, doesn't mean, in my experience anyway, that the celestial sign takes on the qualities of the mundane house, but rather that if Scorpio should fall in the eighth house, it be a place of ease and a good influence in the reading.

It is a similar situation to Saturn being exalted in Libra. The "moody one" is much at ease in Venus' comfortable house, but this doesn't mean that Venus decides to stop washing and starts hanging out in the graveyard, or re-decorate her house (Libra) in Neo-Goth. :party:

Astrology spans a few millennia, so there could be something written of a deeper relationship between celestial and mundane houses that I don't know about. There are hundreds of ancient writings on astrology, many that have never been translated from Arabic, Greek or Latin.


Ayumi