Where do tarot meanings come from (for the minors)

In de Gébelin's _Le Monde Primitif_, le Comte de M*** includes the following meanings for the Minor Arcana based on what he knows already about fortune-telling with playing cards (please forgive the roughness of the translation):

[Fortune-tellers] have retained certain figures and several expressions, consecrated by usage which lets us see into the origin of their divination.
On account of these,
The Hearts, (the Cups), announce happiness.
The Clubs (the Coins), fortune.
The Spades, (the Swords), misfortune.
The Diamonds*, (the Batons), indifference and the countryside. [FN*its remarkable that in the symbolic scriptures the Egyptians delineate diamonds to express the countryside]
The nine of spades is a baneful card.
That of hearts (nine), the card of the Sun, it is easy to recollect the grand nine, that of cups, just like the little nine, the nine of clubs, that they regarded also as a lucky card.
The Aces announce letters or tidings: in effect who is more able to bring me news than the One-Eye, (the Sun) who traverses, sees, and illuminates the entire universe?
The Ace of Spades and the Ace of Hearts presage victory; the crowned Ace foresees likewise and even more happily when accompanied by Cups or fortunate signs.
The Hearts, and more particularly the Ten, unveil outcomes that must occur in the town. The Vup, symbol of the Priesthood, seems destined to express Memphis and the sojourn of the Pontiffs.
The Ace of Hearts and the Queen of Diamonds announce a happy and faithful tenderness. The Ace of Cups expresses a unique well-being that one possesses alone; the Dame of Diamonds indicates a woman who lives in the countryside or as if in the countryside: and where can one hope for more truth and innocence than in the village.
The Nine of Clubs and the Dame of Hearts mark jealousy. Although the Nine of Coins is a fortunate card, nevertheless a grand passion, even a happy one, for a lady living in the real world/high society, does not always part from her lover without anxiety, etc. etc. One would still find a infinity of similarities that it is useless to pursue. There are already too many of them.

[Later in the same essay, he summarizes meanings of cards in a piquet deck - a shortened deck of 36 cards.]

All of the pictures represent personages of which he can be in question. The first to arrive is always the one which is in question.
The Kings are the images of sovereigns, of parents, of generals, of magistrates, of old men.
The Dames have their same characteristics in the genre, relative to their circumstances, albeit in the political order, grave/sad or merry: as much as they are powerful, adroit, plotting, faithful or wanton, passionate or indifferent, sometime rivals, complacent, confident, perfidious, etc. If there appear two cards of the same type/genre, they are the seconds that play the second roles.
The Valets are young men, Warriors, lovers, middle-management (little masters), rivals, etc.
The Seven and the Eight are young women of all types.
The Nine of Hearts is named par excellence the card of the Sun, because it always announces things that are brilliant, agreeable, successful, above all it is united with the Nine of Clubs, which is also a card of marvelous augury. The Nine of Diamonds designates retardation (retard?) toward good or evil.
The Nine of Spades is the most evil cards, it only presages ruin, illness, death.
The Ten of Hearts designates the town; that of Diamonds the country-side, the Ten of Clubs, money; that of Spades, pangs and sorrows.
The Ace announces letters, news.
If the Four Queens appear together that signifies gossip and quarrels.
Several Valets together announce rivalry, disputes and combats.
The Clubs in general, above all, if they emerge together, they announce success, benefit, fortune, wealth.
The Diamonds, the country-side, indifference (dispassionate?).
The Hearts, contentment, well-being.
The Spades, penury, care, sorrows, death.
One must take care to arrange the cards in the same order that they emerge, and on the same line so as not to derange the phrase/statement and to read it more easily.
The predicted outcomes, good or evil, can be more or less advantageous or unfortunate, according to how the principle card which precedes them is accompanied. The spades for example, accompanied by clubs, above all if occurring between two clubs are less dangerous, as the club between two spades or joined to a spade is less fortunate.
Sometimes the commencement (beginning) announces unfortunate/unhappy accidents but the end of the cards is favorable if there are lots of clubs; one regards them as diminished, more or less, following the quantity: if they are followed by nine, the Ace, of the Ten this proves that one has run great dangers but they will pass and that fortune is changing its face.

Ace of Diamonds, 8 of Hearts - Good News.
Ace of Hearts, Queen of Spades - Visit from a woman.
Ace of Hearts, Jack of Hearts - Victory.
Ace, 9, & Jack of Hearts - A fortunate love/lover.

Ace, 10, & 8 of Swords - Evil
Ace of Swords, 8 of Hearts - Victory

Ace of Clubs, Jack of Swords - Friendliness

7 & 10 of Hearts - Friendliness of a young lady
7 of Hearts, Queen of Diamonds - Friendliness of a woman
7 of Diamonds, King of Hearts - A step back /retard

3 9s or 3 10s - Success

10 of Clubs, King of Swords - A gift
10 of Clubs, Jack of Clubs - A Lover, Beloved
10 of Swords, Jack of Diamonds - Someone who is anxious
10 of Hearts, King of Clubs - A sincere friendship.

Mary

Wow! Teheuti, thank you for posting these!

similia said:

As an example for the 2 of wands.

(2 of Fire) + (Mars in Aries) = Lord of Dominion.

2 = Chokmah, duality, impulse and also conception or the beginning of something.
Fire = bursting, creative, firey, passionate, heated, expansive, contagious etc.
Mars = aggresive, male, forceful, harsh, direct, active, etc.
Aries = beginning, spring, firey male energy, masculine, fertile, etc.

Mix these all up, and you get the bossy, domineering, king of the world, 2 of Wands. This gets illustrated in various decks in different ways.

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Very clear answer!
Imho, this are the structural axpects of the two of Wands for the GD tradition.

But is that really what we see in the card?

First, I'm not sure that RWS pictorial realization really convey the above structure.
But that would be definitely OT.

I think that structure, while extremely important, is just a small part of the meaning integrated in any card. I'm not simply talking obut our subjective take on interpreting an Arcana, or to intuition.
I'm referring, if it is at all possible to divide a part of menaing from the other, to the fact that a Tarot card is not just structure and artistic representation. There is something else there in the middle that is ineffable. It is what akes a Tarot card more than the single parts.

ric

RiccardoLS said:

First, I'm not sure that RWS pictorial realization really convey the above structure.

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You are absolutely right, no deck shows only that basic structure. Not even the most basic "Golden Dawn" decks which have not much more details than a pip card are so simple. The formula is a way of explaining the basis of the meanings of the cards, in the modern tradition. The core part perhaps. Then different creators have deviated from that in their own personal way, in line with their own conception of tarot and ideology.

Waite/Smith did it one way, but introducing pictorial scenes. The cards shows much more than this now, but is also I think true to identify these basic meanings underneath that. We see a figure frequently identified as Alexander. A person entirely identifiable with Mars in Aries. From the formula I've copied from Duquette, the GD developed the title of the card, Lord of Dominion. Even Waite tells us the card relates to this in the Pictorial Key "here is a lord overlooking his dominion". But he also gives more meanings, based on other things. And there is more meaning again from Smith's drawing that Waite ignores.

Crowley similarly expanded on the base by including more details. His version is more similar to the GD basis, but also different from it, and expanded by the inclusion of Harris' illustrations and Crowley ideology.

Maybe someone else will do it another way some day. All the pieces combine into something new and unique. And then change again for each person who uses them, and experiences them differently.

I thought it was clubs=wands and diamonds=coins....

Please read:

http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1219263&postcount=10

:.

Diamonds = Batons = Fire
Clubs = Coins = Earth

firemaiden said:

Well, teomat, I guess I'm not only talking about non-scenic pips, but any minor card. Cards that already have a clear meaning established in their image give me the same question --- I wonder not so much what the card means, but how the meaning got there? What made the artist/creator decide to give the card that meaning?

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That's why I love the decks where the creator and artist decide to break away from traditional meanings. It's a little tingling jolt to think on my own.

The Romani 9 of Chivs (Swords) has always been one of those cards for me. I just don't see the "dark night of the soul" there.

I see superheated water on that wheel.

Well I think we can all agree firemaiden that basically what we "know" is that crazy wigmaker Etteilla plus the folklore of Pythagoras, Pythagooras as he has come down to us thru time in a simplistic way.

This is why I am so interested in Ric's comments because LS has never been afraid to look at the systems afresh. I personally am left cold by the GD & Crowley, other approaches have possibilities too!

firemaiden said:

The question is what gives the small cards their meanings?

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We seem to have a lot of options:

• suit (any meaningful quaternity)
• number
• systems of correspondences (i.e., astrology, I-Ching, angels, etc.)
• correspondences to Major Arcana
• traditional playing card meanings
• traditional tarot card meanings (i.e., Etteilla and later)
• symbols and images on any particular deck (including the Marseille)
• an associated storyline (Dante, Casanova, Psyche, a wild night out)
• a seemingly random assignment of cards to 'things-that-can't-be-ignored-in-divination-but-don't-fit-into-any-system.'

Any more?

Firemaiden:
Love your story through the Cups suit - really cute and memorable.

Ace of cups : - feeling reeeeal cozy with you
Two of Cups :- ooooooooooo baby, reaaaaally cozy
Three of Cups : Oh her? She's just a friend! lets party!
Four of Cups: -- ummm shhhhhhh... I think I need to sit down a minute.
Five of Cups: - uh oh... sorry -- the room was spinning, I think I just spilled my drink. Come back!
Six of Cups: could you please help me up off the floor?
Seven of Cups :- where am I? who am I? Is that a dagger I see before me? Out damned spot...
Eight of Cups: -- uhoh -- I think they might be kicking me out of this joint
Nine of Cups: -- I can't feel my feet, but that's a good thing
Ten of Cups: is that the pearly gates I see???

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