Tips for reading with the Marseilles

Bernice

ihcoyc said: "That's all I am trying to say."
And that's why I apologised. However, I would still say that the Rider-Waite isn't a Tradition, but it is seemingly in the process of being thought of as such. Every deck has it's day.

I've seen this same thing happen with astrological methods. You can't (and shouldn't) dispense with a system that proves workable for large numbers of people, but it should not be accorded the title 'traditional' just because it's going through a popular phase.

All versions of the tarot are simply a facet of the Tarot. Its' facets are an evolution of cultures, politics and esoteric understandings. And now we have the tarot-like oracle versions which are as you have said, along the lines of "Egyptian Cat Goddess Tarot of the Celtic Feminist Gypsies from Atlantis and its many variations." All RW clones, and some are really bad ones!

I think that fundamentally we are in agreement, aside from our differing ideas of the word 'tradition'. For some years now this word has been applied to a certain Alphabet of Plants, which I know for certain was taken from a very well written work of fiction. So I've become sensitive to it's use.

Bee
 

stella01904

Bernice said:
"Egyptian Cat Goddess Tarot of the Celtic Feminist Gypsies from Atlantis and its many variations."
:D :D :D
And agreed, RWS is not a tradition. It's a pop Tarot. Calling it a tradition is like comparing the Ronettes with the Child ballads.

Don't get me wrong, though, I love the Ronettes. :D
 

Paul

When I was looking for tips for reading the TdM many moons ago, I encountered a Tarot market saturated with RWS and Crowley. I first entertained that I could overlay RWS/Crowley-- which is to say mostly the Golden Dawn rubric--on top of the TdM, but this seemed highly dissatisfactory, since the TdM predated the Golden Dawn, even if the GD claims its knowledge base was perennial and only discovered in later centuries. So, I was interested in something more seminal.

I think it's also helpful to keep in mind that the Atlantic Ocean has had a lot to do with the 2 major Tarot schools. In Europe, the Marseilles deck has been ubiquitous. The RWS is often termed the Tarot Américain, at least in my circles of friends in Europe. Moreover, the Minors have played a Minor role in Europe, while they are afforded (near)equal status with the Majors with the RWS/Crowley decks, largely due to the cartoon pictures on the Minors.

When I say "Europe" the exception may be the UK, wherein RWS/Crowley decks are more popular to my knowledge, but of course Waite and Crowley have British bloodlines, no?

So, I leave the RWS/Crowley decks to their devotees, and we just sit at different tables.

So, perhaps the TdM explorer could ask, how could these cards be interpreted before Waite and Crowley?
 

ihcoyc

stella01904 said:
Calling it a tradition is like comparing the Ronettes with the Childe ballads.

Yes, there is a lot of fakelore out there. The standard bits of fakelore in Tarot history, that they were derived from Egyptian religious sources, and brought to Europe by Gypsies, are something else entirely. These claims were typical of the kind of mythography that was routine in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. The people who invented them were taking a shot in the dark The ideas captured imaginations, and as such took on a life of their own. This is typical of the folklore process. We complain about it in vain.

(One thing that would help is to point out that Renaissance Italy is way cooler than ancient Egypt. Ancient Egypt is a place of Pharaohs, slaves, and mummies. Renaissance Italy is a world of poets, great music, artists, gamblers, Popes, poisoners, and assassins. It's an upscale version of The Sopranos, with better clothes. Now, nineteenth century esotericism was solar and sky-oriented. Twentieth century esotericism trended to become much more lunar and earth-oriented. That's a full subject for a rant in itself; let's just say that I find it kind of hard to name the "Great White Brotherhood" without snickering. But for me, part of the attraction of the French and Italian tarots are their earthiness, their lack of pretense to "enlightenment." Need to sell that.)

But once again - tradition isn't necessarily about recovering the true original creation and restoring it as the most authentic. Folksongs cease to be folksongs if they cease to be sung.

The real problem, to me, is not so much inauthenticity as it is Disneyfication: the replacement of the many twists and turns of old tales with a single version, that because of the sheer weight of publicity comes to be taken as the canonical one. That, for better or for worse, is the situation of the RWS in the English speaking world.

When I see II La Papesse, I sometimes think of the old tale of the Fisherman's Wife. You can't get that from a High Priestess. Nor is Disney going to make a movie out of that old story; it's way too politically incorrect.
 

Bernice

ihcoyc,

I read your review of The Ancient Italian Tarot. In it, you say it is a favourite marseille deck of yours, the marseille meanings/symbolism shines through. Can you confirm that?

Reason for asking is that an online shop has sent me the Ancient Italian instead of Ancient Minchiate Etruria. Just about to begin the process of sorting it out (haven't opened the Ancient Italian) and am now wondering if this is instead a happy luckinstance (... you know what I mean :)).

Bee
 

ihcoyc

Bernice said:
ihcoyc,

I read your review of The Ancient Italian Tarot. In it, you say it is a favourite marseille deck of yours, the marseille meanings/symbolism shines through. Can you confirm that?

Sure. The Ancient Italian is one of my favorite decks. Imagine for the most part a fancy Marseille deck that has been redrawn with fine engravings instead of woodcuts, with more conventional perspective and proportions. That, for the most part, is what you get with the Ancient Italian. Even the general demeanor of the court cards and even of the pip cards is consistent with the Marseille - i.e. the King of Bastoni has a huge club that he wields at an angle as if he were going to mash his foot with it. Some of the more salient differences are noted in that review.

I'd still send it back - the Ancient Minchiate Etruria is also something you want, even if it is obviously not Marseille based.
 

Bernice

Thank you ihcoyc. Will keep the Ancient Italian near the top of my wish-list.

Bee :)
 

DrTodd

It is really nice to see this thread has developed in the way that it has. I last posted on this thread in Decemeber 2007...since then I have been working with the Noblet Tarot exclusively and had the good fortune of seeing EE lecture for 2 hours on the Noblet in London, which was a huge treat for me!

I have been studying these cards and working with the idea of optical readings and seeing the cards as lenses or a vehicle through which we work out our daily concerns.

I have now given readings with the Noblet deck to great satisfaction and look forward to an MBS fayre in August. I find the optical approach intuitive and liberating, and open to use with other oracular systems and correspondences.

I love discovering new things about each card and each spread that I do. I am still furiously taking notes and reading voraciously. As a jazz musician, I like the finite structure of the cards, the images, colours, etc..and the infinite possibilities unleashed by their momentary juxtaposition in any given readings.

Sulis has provided me with a wonderful rust bag with a gold lining in which to keep my cards and these will be my main cards for my readings from now on.
 

stella01904

ihcoyc said:
I'd still send it back - the Ancient Minchiate Etruria is also something you want, even if it is obviously not Marseille based.

No, no, get the Minchiate Fiorentine! Pricier, but much better quality.
The Minchiate Etruria has tissue for cardstock. :/