How to appreciate Crowley?

Lillie

I killed Lillie and buried her under the patio.

I'm an alien masquerading as Lillie.
But that's just for now.
Later I'll take over the world and make you all into slaves...
I'll send you all to work in the great spaghetti mines of Algor 7.

It was true about the royal family though.
They were very naughty people.

Dean

Lillie said:
It was true about the royal family though.
They were very naughty people.

They still are... but ya gotta love them.

mac22

Ok, I admit it I finally got _Do What Thou Wilt_ to the top of my reading list - I found it a sane, balanced, warts-and-all look at Crowley.

Another thing it brought light is that Yeats had his own praeternatural book of his own _A Vision_ - A book that like Crowley's Liber AL vel Legis the author edited & added to the rest of his life.

And while Yeats didn't declare a new Aeon based on his work he did feel it offered a distillation of his views & Magickal life.

I took a whack at it in a college course of poetry -- and failed pretty miserably --- So I thought I'd give it a 2nd try given that I have a bit more maturity and lots better Magickal grounding.

Thus far it makes much more sense than it did in my 20s -- hehe. Has anyone one else tackled _A Vision_? Has anyone else found success with it?

Mac22

Greg Stanton

I don't think Crowley can be appreciated. Period.

He stole practically everything he wrote from his Golden Dawn teachings, and passed it off as his own.

After founding Thelema, and while at the Abbey of Thelema (in Italy), he performed many, many animal sacrifices. Mainly cats, and I have seen pictures of him doing this, so there is not doubt in my mind that it is true -- not to mention the many accounts of his disciples. There are also accounts of infant (human) sacrifice performed by Thelema, but I have not found any actual evidence to support this (see http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/scarlet-and-the-beast.htm for an account of this).

He was a FAILED magician. He never saw the Abramelin operation through to its intended end -- instead he claimed his guardian angel delivered the holy texts that would usher in a new age and become the religion that would replace Christianity (it didn't).

His system of magick, and the Golden Dawn system of magic, doesn't work. I studied both GD and AC for 20 years, and never achieved any tangible results from my efforts. Nor have I ever met anyone who has.

He was a loser drug addict that couldn't make his own living -- he leeched off others instead.

All this aside, Frieda Harris painted a brilliant deck under his direction. Too bad it is marred by his Golden Dawn training, and his personal war against Christianity.

I say, use the Thoth deck if you like the pictures/design of the deck. Crowley was an immoral, amoral man who lived solely for his own interest -- an attention-getter who produced very little original work. He his not taken seriously by scholarly-type occultists, nor are his secular writings regarded in the secular world.

If you can reconcile the man's utter lack of morality and humanity...

Durant Hapke

Illuminating Greg Stanton,

Bring it, and enjoy a wild sandwich.

Yeah, bring it again, and continue to swing a "big bag of bring me a gong."

I say, bang a gong and get it on...

Can you post the pictures of AC sacrificing cats?

Just put a little warning in the header like, "be warned, graphic content."

Interesting.

Your dancing the dance provocateur, yes?

I will ponder on.

Durant "I see a bucket, get me some ice" Hapke

Durant Hapke

IGS,

Could you explain the use of all caps here?

Greg Stanton said:
He was a FAILED magician.

You mean to say he was a large magician?

Interesting.

Rocking bring that action on, and wow I need to kick a few lights fantastic.

Regarding the link, I was all about checking that action out, but must share that it was all a bit of a Jack bird "I can't make any sense of this," kind of a deal.

Clearly I don't think I would take the information that's not presented out drinking with me, not a lot of gusto there I'm thinking.

When I was all a kid, there was this kind of weird sponge material that one could get there hands on, and it was very flat and hard...

But, when you soaked it in some water, it would get big like, and swollen -- like your statements above.

Nice to see your drawing form the "erotic" side of the universe... I use the word very loosely, as it's only just so... But I sense an arousal in your words, an excitement of things to come from them.

About such, I've been thinking about writing a short story about sexual "Thoth dreams," but have only got as far as puling back the rug to find the cellar door.

Your ideas, in a weird way has rekindled my interest -- thanks for that...

I've long believed that sex and creativity are the same thing -- like the strong and weak nuclear forces -- manifestation of the same base need.

I will press on.

Durant "swinging fish" Hapke

Abrac

Greg Stanton said:
I don't think Crowley can be appreciated. Period.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he can't be appreciated period, but I do agree to a large extent. For all of its "do what thou wilt," Crowleyism more resembles a cult in its blind allegiance to The Beast 666 than an avenue of self-discovery.

Aeon418

Greg Stanton said:
He stole practically everything he wrote from his Golden Dawn teachings, and passed it off as his own.

Crowley's writings evolved out of the Golden Dawn. It's where he was initially trained in magick. That's why there is such a heavy GD influence in his works. But to say that Crowley merely passed off GD teachings as his own is an outright lie. Get your facts straight.

Greg Stanton said:
After founding Thelema, and while at the Abbey of Thelema (in Italy), he performed many, many animal sacrifices.

Many, many? Really? Again your facts are incorrect. Was animal sacrifice performed at the Abbey of Thelema? Yes. One cat, one Goat. That's hardly the many, many that you claim. <text removed by moderator>

Greg Stanton said:
I have seen pictures of him doing this, so there is not doubt in my mind that it is true

[Edited at request of AT mods]
<text removed by moderator>
There are no pictures of A.C. sacrficing anything. Period!

Greg Stanton said:
There are also accounts of infant (human) sacrifice performed by Thelema, but I have not found any actual evidence to support this (see http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/scarlet-and-the-beast.htm for an account of this).

I'm not surprised you can't find any evidence. It never took place. Duh!

Greg Stanton said:
He never saw the Abramelin operation through to its intended end

Yes he did. While traveling through China.

Greg Stanton said:
His system of magick, and the Golden Dawn system of magic, doesn't work. I studied both GD and AC for 20 years, and never achieved any tangible results from my efforts. Nor have I ever met anyone who has.

Greg Stanton said:
He was a loser drug addict that couldn't make his own living -- he leeched off others instead.

And your point is?

You also forgot to mention the dozens of books he wrote. The mountains he climbed and the records he set. The countries and religious traditions he explored. His experiments with mysticism and magick and the altering of consciousness. The countless numbers of women (and men) he loved.

Greg Stanton said:
All this aside, Frieda Harris painted a brilliant deck under his direction. Too bad it is marred by his Golden Dawn training, and his personal war against Christianity.

Booo. Down with Christianity. :laugh:

Greg Stanton said:
I say, use the Thoth deck if you like the pictures/design of the deck.

Thank you. I will. Although I wasn't aware I needed your permision.

Greg Stanton said:
Crowley was an immoral, amoral man who lived solely for his own interest -- an attention-getter who produced very little original work. He his not taken seriously by scholarly-type occultists, nor are his secular writings regarded in the secular world.

chriske

Greg Stanton said:
I don't think Crowley can be appreciated. Period.

Hi Greg,

You're entitled to your opinion of course. I got to admit I have a pile of Crowley's books still to read on my desk but I am working through them. I don't consider myself to be an academic but I do read a lot. Have you read "Magick Without Tears"? In my opinion, that book should be read by anyone that has even the slightest interest in the occult. At the very lowest level it is extremely entertaining, and Crowley writes beautifully. Equally wonderful (albeit short) is "Little Essays Towards Truth". Have you read that one too?

I understand that you may find the man's behaviour distasteful. I am not in the slightest way interested in how he lived his life. He would not be too interested in the way I live mine. But I am surprised that anyone who read the 2 books that I mention could say that Crowley can't be appreciated.

sapienza

Greg Stanton said:
I don't think Crowley can be appreciated. Period.

That's as ridiculous as saying "I don't think cheesecake can be appreciated. Period", or "I don't think tennis can be appreciated. Period."

I'm not going to give an opinion either way on Mr Crowley, but I do know that we all have our own ideas, tastes and therefore, different things we can appreciate. Perhaps it would be better to say....I can't appreciate Crowley. Unless of course you were trying to be deliberately controversial

How to appreciate Crowley?

Lillie

Dean

mac22

Greg Stanton

Durant Hapke

Durant Hapke

Abrac

Aeon418

chriske

sapienza