How to appreciate Crowley?

Rosanne

kwaw said:
Why should there be?
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The book that Similia had just read in 2005 by Lawrence Sutin states that he, the biographer, considered Crowley antisemitic. I was saying in relation to that book- the mentor (Crowley) had not influenced the artist(Harris) in that. I also think Crowley a confused man, to put it politely and that confusion also does not appear in her work.
~Rosanne
 

kwaw

Rosanne said:
The book that Similia had just read in 2005 by Lawrence Sutin states that he, the biographer, considered Crowley antisemitic. I was saying in relation to that book- the mentor (Crowley) had not influenced the artist(Harris) in that. I also think Crowley a confused man, to put it politely and that confusion also does not appear in her work.
~Rosanne
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As anti-semitic as he was claimed to be (and indeed, he made many anti-semitic seeming remarks), he had many Jewish acquaintances over his life, including some of his closest friends and relationships.

Lady Harris's husband was Jewish, her father-in-law, if memory serves me right, was warden of the New West End Synagogue, being of Polish Jewish descent I believe.

He (Wolf Harris) was one of the founders of Bing Harris in New Zealand during the gold rush.
 

Rosanne

kwaw said:
Lady Harris's father-in-law, if memory serves me right, was warden of the New West End Synagogue, being of Polish Jewish descent I believe.

He (Wolf Harris) was one of the founders of Bing Harris in New Zealand during the gold rush.
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Lordy what a connection to my beautiful land! :D
As to the antisemitic statements- mainly leveled at one Victor Neuburg- maybe Lady Harris did not like him or was jealous- who knows? Maybe it was Crowley venting his spleen in a Lover's tiff- whatever, Crowley came across as a bigot, a racist, a profligate, and a thoroughly bad egg which he seemed to revel in. He needed spanking in the traditional manner- or maybe he was and that was his problem. Sounds very upper class Victorian English with a boarding school fixation. ~Rosanne
 

Aeon418

People often point a finger at many of Crowley's attitudes and ignorantly assume that they were peculiar to Crowley alone. (This is what some people would like you to believe too. ;)) The fact is that many of the attitudes and opinions Crowley held were common currency and even the norm.

Try reading what the man had to say himself (and not just the title ;))

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_73.html
 

Debra

kwaw said:
As anti-semitic as he was claimed to be (and indeed, he made many anti-semitic seeming remarks), he had many Jewish acquaintances over his life, including some of his closest friends and relationships.

Lady Harris's husband was Jewish, her father-in-law, if memory serves me right, was warden of the New West End Synagogue, being of Polish Jewish descent I believe.

He (Wolf Harris) was one of the founders of Bing Harris in New Zealand during the gold rush.
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kwaw, friend, this is referred to as the "some of my best friends are Jewish" line. Variations include "some of my best friends are gay," "black," "women," etc. Usually proceeded or followed by an explanation of the inferiority of that group compared to ones own.

Nonsense, as is the argument of his attitudes just being "of the times"--especially for one who claims to have transcended the times.
 

kwaw

Debra said:
kwaw, friend, this is referred to as the "some of my best friends are Jewish" line. Variations include "some of my best friends are gay," "black," "women," etc. Usually proceeded or followed by an explanation of the inferiority of that group compared to ones own.

Nonsense, as is the argument of his attitudes just being "of the times"--especially for one who claims to have transcended the times.
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Hi Debra

I have no interest per se in wasting my time being a defender or otherwise of Crowley and am happy to leave it for people to form their own opinions as I expect to be left alone to form mine, my question with Greg is the disparity between his apparent and self-acknowledged ignorance contre his self-proclaimed knowledge and experience.

That point being somewhat now belaboured I leave the thread to develop as all the others that have repeated the same issues before it.

Thanks for the link Aeon:

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/mwt_73.html
 

Greg Stanton

As has been shown here, it is difficult to discern between Crowley what said with what he actually meant.

He wanted attention, his name in the papers, and so he made outrageous and hateful remarks to seed his notoriety. He had to do and say evil things to fuel the fire, to prove he was "the wickedest man in the world".

His defenders will point to certain actions in his life that are at odds with his stated racist, anti-semitic, and misogynist views. I say that it is not important whether he actually believed what he said (which we will never know), but that he said these things at all.

Again, this disparity between what he said and what his supposed intentions were has led me to the conclusion that he cannot, and should not be taken seriously -- as a magician, as a teacher, or as a human being.
 

Abrac

Greg Stanton said:
5) His system of "magick" was derived from the Golden Dawn, whose teachings were assembled/concocted/invented from incomplete, misunderstood and flawed sources -- and moreover, the GD material he used was largely left intact, errors included.
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Crowley's Thelema was initially inspired by Egyptian sources, but after realizing he was in over his head, he quickly reverted back to what he was most comfortable with, i.e. Golden Dawn, Kabbalah, Gematria, etc. Thus it retains a quasi-Egyptian flavor, but is certainly not a revival of anything truly Egyptian.
 

Abrac

Greg Stanton said:
As has been shown here, it is difficult to discern between Crowley what said with what he actually meant.

He wanted attention, his name in the papers, and so he made outrageous and hateful remarks to seed his notoriety. He had to do and say evil things to fuel the fire, to prove he was "the wickedest man in the world".

His defenders will point to certain actions in his life that are at odds with his stated racist, anti-semitic, and misogynist views. I say that it is not important whether he actually believed what he said (which we will never know), but that he said these things at all.

Again, this disparity between what he said and what his supposed intentions were has led me to the conclusion that he cannot, and should not be taken seriously -- as a magician, as a teacher, or as a human being.
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Crowley unfortunately fell prey to his own inflated ego. Although he claimed to have "crossed the Abyss" and dissolved his ego as a result, there doesn't seem to be much evidence for this. There is a good deal of evidence that he was very conflicted between good vs. evil. I suspect this inner struggle was responsible for much of his bizarre behavior. It seems as good an explanation as any to me anyway.
 

Always Wondering

similia said:
For the benefit of people following this thread who are unaware of the context of this claim, Crowley was making a vieled reference to sex magic. Specifically, 150 ejaculations that did not result in a child being conceived. The metaphor was used as it was unacceptable in Victorian time to publish a discourse on masturbation, though acceptable to sacrifice children :rolleyes: At the request of a colleage he included a lengthy disclaimer, warning about literal interpretation of the chapter this claim appeared in. None the less people frequently quote it literally and hysterically.

In Australia recently it has been a legal battle in the courts. Some people are still ignorantly promoting this as a literal fact, which has been judged as religious vilification. Some details may be seen on the local OTO website.
http://www.otoaustralia.org.au/main.htm Click the link for press releases.
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Thank's Similia, you're a sweetie. I was following along and wondering.

Good to hear from you.

AW
 
Vitriol Your interpretations of the cards.