History and Theory of the Elements

nisaba said:

Nisaba: Isn't Saturn the archetype of the Great Teacher?

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Yep. But if you're not a willing and focussed pupil, he teaches by negative means. And if you choose to ignore the lesson (blithely carry on), he'll repeat it!

Bee

Kilted Kat said:

I thought this essay would be a good conversation starter:

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/AGEDE/Intro.html

What do you think?

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Opsopaos started with: "The discovery of the Four Elements is generally credited to Empedocles, a fifth century BCE Greek from Sicily."

Actually Empedocles is credited with the invention of a specific model of the elements, not with the discovery ... as far I remember, the discussion of the elements was a big theme between all the pre-Socratian philosophs, starting with Thales.

Using the term "element" one has to state, that everybody in the past, who took the engagement to participate in the perhaps 3000 years old discussion, talked in the common case of the elements, as he personally understood this term or terms, and also it's rather common, that his personal opinion was usually not really exchangable with that, how others talked about objects, which they had the freedom to give the same name (but possibly meant something different).

For observators of the later times on earth, something, what we naturally are, it seems advisable, to distinguish the relevant philosophical productions ... otherwise it's easy to become confused ... .-) .. this shouldn't be too difficult to us, as this problem constantly reappears also in the various definitions of the diverging Tarot models ...

Opsopaos then follows Empedocles in his details, quoting ...

"Now hear the fourfold Roots of everything:
Enlivening Hera, Hades, shining Zeus,
And Nestis, moistening mortal springs with tears. "

... which leads then to the interpretation, that "shining Zeus" means Air, Hera is Earth, Hades is Feuer and this unknown Nestis, by some interpreted as a Sicilian water goddess, means in reality Persephone (probably cause Hera is wife to Zeus and Persephone wife to Hades).

Well, I start to get here problems, when "shining Zeus" (Zeus is given with an attribute) is equated to Air ... a "shining Zeus" should actually indicate, that Zeus got here functions, which are usually given to Helios, god of the sun. And the sun ... each old Greek knew cause of practical experience, that this was relevant for the element fire.

Well, this Zeus=Air is not Empedokles, but the interpretation of Opsopaos following the opinion of Kingsley, who is credited by Opsopaos for this statement. Details are given under the point "Hera" ...

http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/AGEDE/Air.html#H

... were Opsopaos states "many solutions have been proposed" and himself gives evidence with this, that there are many interpretations possible for this passage.

I personally think, that ...

Zeus = Fire
Hera = Air
Hades = Earth
Nestis = something similar to Persephone = Water

... might be that, what Empedocles really meant. My reason I give below, when I start to speak of Thales. But first I wish to say, that the Empedocles-scheme for the elements is nothing else, than the common ...

11 - 10 - 01 - 00

... whereby "1" shall mean "it exists" and "0" shall mean "it exists not" and the first and second position (from 11-01-10-00) shall decide the existence of a specific quality (probably existence of warm energy and moisture, whereby coldness is the result of "missing warm energy" and dryness the result of "missing moisture").

So if we assume something like the bible's origin-of-world theory ... there is water and it's dark and the light (= sun) appears (the warm energy) ... , we might be in the imagination of Empedocles, which is not "original" by Empedocles, but just a rather common pattern, probably old as mankind.

Nothing is new with Empedocles ... as it seems.

Well, back to Thales, the first Greek philosopher, as far we know ... Thales had the idea, that the earth is swimming on the water, so it is told ...
So we have here the model ...

heaven = above
earth = middle
water = below

... the idea of Thales is less absurd, when we remember, that Greece is a country with many islands and unavoidable knowledge of much water. If Thales had lived inside inner Asia or in the Alps, he would have had problems with his own philosophy. Also Thales as many Greeks probably had experience with earthquakes, which might have contributed to the idea, that the common ground of earth might be less stable, than it might imagined at other places on earth.

Thales was not the only Greek person with this condition ... if we follow the origin-of-world theory of Hesiod, we see this model:

Gaia (earth) marries Uranos (heaven) and then (after Uranos is overcome by Kronos) marries Pontos (water)

Here we have the similar model ... earth between two men. Again it might assumed, like with Thales ...

heaven = Uranos = above
earth = Gaia = middle
water = Pontos = below

The model of Hesiod (with all its extensions), who lived around 700 BC, became the dominant mythological model. At the time of Empedocles (490–430 BC) the mythological model already had lost its power. The science of nature took its first steps. In the Greek feeling of the time mythological interpretation still existed, but modern mind laughed about it.

The Olympic extension (inside the mythological model) formed the triad Zeus-Hades-Poseidon (the three sons of Kronos) as the new rulers ... again we find the model above-middle-below prolonged

Zeus ... lives on a mountain (= heaven)
Hades ... lives in the earth (= middle)
Poseidon ... the new ruler of the ocean (below), responsible also for earthquakes

but inside this system the three protagonists have sisters:

Hestia ... goddess of the cooking fire = so she presents (also) Fire
Demeter - especially responsible for corn and nourishment = so it's Earth
Hera ... shall we assume a second earth, as Opsopaus suggested it above ? ... no, probably not. Either water or air ... or what?

....

The trouble with Empedocles is possibly, that he lived at Sicily and knew about volcanos better than the Greek in the home country ... legend will, that he even died in a volcano.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanism_in_Italy

The probable truth about Empedocles is, that his ideas and nearer observations about volcanos inclusive his not perfect explanations shocked the common mind of his time. Greek, who stayed in the home country, hadn't so much opportunity to observe the volcano phenomenon. Of course, there had been Santorin long ago and there is a volcanic chain under the water from Greek to Turkey, causing occasional tsunamis, but it's not comparable to the open sensations in Italy.
...

Well, back to the Hesiodic model .. a system with 6 (or 8) "elements".

3 sons + 3 daughters have father + mother. That's the common binary model (2^3), and as it seems, that in a somehow "very special version" it was used (also) by the myths of the Greek

111 = father
000 = mother

100
010 = 3 sons
001

011
101 = 3 daughters
110

And it was used in China, contemporary, ca. 1000 or 1100 BC. We know it from I-Ching:

111 = heaven
000 = earth

100 = thunder (oldest)
010 = water (or abyss, 2nd)
001 = mountain (youngest)

011 = wind or wood = air (oldest)
101 = fire (2nd)
110 = lake, joy (another water ? ; youngest)

The traditional Chinese system presented in I-Ching has similar confusion as the Greek model, but with some patience ...

The traditional model is (or should have been according analyses):

heaven = Element fire = top
man = Element air = middle (the Greek interpretation had here earth)
earth = Element water = below

heaven-man-earth had been the basic logic of the I-Ching, fire-air-water became the general base model in Western element theories, in which fire and water are the opposing pair, air is the communication between fire and water and earth is the mix of the other 3 elements (that's the logic in the most element theories).

Now Chinese thinking formed subcategories (6 children):

thunder ... seems to contain a "fire-element"
water ... seems to contain a "water-element"
mountain ... seems to contain an earth-element, but likely belongs to "air"

wind, wood ... seems to contain an "air-element"
fire ... seems to contain a "fire-element"
lake, joy ... seems to contain a "water-element"

Now the I-Ching is formed by lines, the 8 trigrams by 3 lines, the hexagrams by 6 lines.

1. The first line (the below position) is basically called "earth" (by Chinese) or "water" (Western theory identifies it as "water", either by Pontos or by Poseidon).
In the mathematical universe:
- the "below position" forms in the Chinese universe 100 (= thunder as fire-Element) and 011 (= wind,wood as air-element)
so we have here
dominant WATER with FIRE and AIR as children-pair (thunder-wind)

2. the second line (the middle position) is basically called "man" (by Chinese) or "earth" by old Greek (Gaia, Hades) or later "air" (communication between the opposing pair) by common element theories.
In the mathematical universe:
- the "middle position" forms in the Chinese universe 010 (= water, abyss) and 101 (= fire)
so we do have here
dominant AIR with WATER and FIRE as children-pair (water-fire)

3. the third line (the heaven position) is basically called "heaven" (by Chinese and old Greek) or later "fire" (positive part of the opposition pair fire-water) by common element theories.
In the mathematical universe:
- the upper heaven position forms in the Chinese universe 001 (= mountain) and 110 (= lake, joy)
so we do have here
dominant FIRE with AIR and WATER as children-pair (mountain identified as part of air - lake identified as water)

So I hope, you didn't lose your head meanwhile ... this all is rather simple

3rd Line = FIRE ... children air + water (001 + 110)
2nd Line = AIR ... children water + fire (010 + 101)
1st Line = WATER ... children fire + air (100 + 011)

or more simple

3. 001 + 110
2. 010 + 101
1. 100 + 011

Each element (fire-air-water) is on all 3 positions (1.-2.-3.), either as child or as dominant element, which has the result, that the somewhat confusing Chinese model behaves completely logical, actually as a simple mathematical idea.


The difference between "sons" (thunder, water-abyss, mountain) and "daughters" (wind-wood, fire, lake-joy) is easy to grap:

sons present the individual, "moving" point in an element
daughters are the element (but they are not the base-element)

So ..

thunder is the individual (explosive) action of fire
fire is fire

water,abyss in the chinese interpretation presents the "flowing" river
lake-joy the "calm" state of water

mountain is the individual point in the height (of the air)
wind-wood is the general air

****
also the 3 sons present the general 3 stages of movement:

thunder is the begin of movement
water is the (dangerous) middle of movement
mountain is the (quiet) end of movement

.. well, I don't feel sure,that you understood this, but it's a sort of "perfect model"

As far the Chinese cosmos is concerned, the Chinese developed a 5-states-of-change-theory (ca. 500 BC or so), which dominated later thinking and in which 000 was identified as Earth and 111 as Metal. So far a somewhat logical step ... but it seems, they then also lost the logical beginning.

Similar the Greek model ... it seems, that inside the Hesiodic model something similar was tried, although all this was confused by the matter, that there seems to have been the trend to walk on with the idea "earth is in the middle" and that the whole concept was disturbed by other considerations.

Perhaps one should think in this matter of the general philosophic concepts of idealism and materialism. Idealistic world theory tends to develop "perfect" theories, which naturally are disturbed, cause they are fiction and never really perfect and reality creates at some point unsolvable difficulties, provoking new ideas and new theories.

Fun but Useless Speculation for Boys and Girls of All Ages

WARNING - I am the illegitimate bastard son of Aristotle and Plotinus!

Bernice said:

Yep. But if you're not a willing and focussed pupil, he teaches by negative means. And if you choose to ignore the lesson (blithely carry on), he'll repeat it!

Bee

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I have no problem with that.

delete

To Melancholic

VERY interesting.
Obvious links to the modern Tree of Life .
I'll definitely be looking into this further, later.

B

Aeon Flux

One should consider Love & Strife whenever contemplating da' Roots...

Empedocles said:

A twofold tale I shall tell: at one time it grew to be one alone out of many, at another again it grew apart to be many out of one. Double is the birth of mortal things and double their failing; for one is brought to birth and destroyed by the coming together of all things, the other is nurtured and flies apart as they grow apart again. And these things never cease their continual exchange, now through Love all coming together into one, now again each carried apart by the hatred of Strife. So insofar as it has learned to grow one from many, and again as the one grows apart [there] grow many, thus far do they come into being and have no stable life; but insofar as they never cease their continual interchange, thus far they exist always changeless in the cycle.
[translation modified] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/empedocles/

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Melanchollic said:

Fun but Useless Speculation for Boys and Girls of All Ages

HOW THE 4 POWERS ARISE FROM NOTHINGNESS

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Definitely Fun, and Certainly NOT Useless! Thanks so much for sharing these...

For myself I have assigned the Elements to the 22.
I treat 5 Majors to each suit.
I have made a chart to explain.
The World card combines four elements and the Fool card has no elements.
~Rosanne

Lets see it this img stuff works....for me, that is

My system,
First 7 cards = Fire
Next 7 = Air
Next 7 = Water
World = Earth



hmm a bit on the large size, but workable

Beanu