The Teaching Tent

Sticking my toe into the Tent...maybe eating foot in a while...

Obviously waiting for Mi-Shell to weigh in here, but I think the menstrual issue is about power. The spider web signals that Mi-shell is in her Crone years I think...I don't know why though. But I know if she is still in her Moon cycles she can't handle the tools of the men, because of the intensity of power she carries. With no cycle, she is more equal to a man energetically? Do I have any of it right Mi-shell?

Yes, You are all right! Satori gets a virtual Owl feather for her reply!
( You all deserve one, we are on page 100 of this thing, can you believe it... )
Ojibwa men do not like any pre menopausal woman to have anything to do with any Sacred workings. It is the oooold fear of a woman, who through the afore mentioned endorphins (and how to get them) sirrrrling through your blood will out=do any man.
We women may call it our power, but menstruating women in some tribes are not even allowed to prepare food. That is also why the Ojibwa will not eat anything that is prepared bu a Mohawk family or heaven forbid an apache or Navajo family. there could be "Blood in there"
At the Pow Wow in Toronto or elswhere the stands of the Navajo fry bread booth never have men in their line-ups, but LOTS of women and ones with small babies (that are nursing)
You, as a young strapping Ojibwa - or Cree or Lakota lady, are not allowed to do public prayers or handle certain objecto or even speak. You can go to an Elder woman and she will speak for you.

Oh yeah, forgot:
Being "all dried up” also includer celebacy for at least 3 months prior to the event, depending on the role of the woman. Last year - the post relates to precedings from last year - Marleen was not - she fell in looooove with a realy nice guy and.....
The Elders were sooooooo upset and aghast and so she coud not continue what she was planing to do with the event. Because of it, this year we do not even know, iff we will do the Pow Wow again.....

Thank you for the excellent explanations Satori and Mi-Shell.

Now my mind is full of questions and "what if" scenarios... I'm coming from a Western feminist, queer, and Gender Studies-schooled perspective here, which clearly plays a role in what I can even "see" of these issues in other cultures, so I hope I'm not asking questions that are offensive or incredibly stupid...

So age/experience is not the deciding factor in determining if a woman can do that kind of work but the presence (or absence) of a well-functioning uterus and ovaries and/or an active sexuality?

Now I'm wondering... What would they think about very young women who've had a hysterectomy? Transmen of any age who've had one, too? Transwomen of any age who never had a uterus to begin with? And does being celibate only refer to not sharing one's sexuality with someone else, or does it also include enjoying yourself on your own?

Are there any Native women who are protesting these traditions, similar to what is happening in Christian churches or Jewish synagogues and the related communities? Or don't they feel limited by these rules and look more to the opportunities they (also) offer (e.g. I imagine that some may find it nice not having to talk themselves, or having separate spaces without men, etc.)?

Which then brings my thoughts around to the question of Two Spirits and other Native American gender identities that are not (only) male or female. I suppose the attitudes towards them depends much on the specific cultures/tribes? Do you have any experience with that, Mi-Shell?

Hu hu hu !
ARE they EVER protesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And founding drumming groups that drum soooo loud that the "traditionalists' toe nails fly of!!!
The whole scene is in uproar! Women are saying NO and NO more sex and going on strike. Others say to hell withthe old guys an do things anyway. Elder women say "Be patient!!!!! Do not push too hard"
Young women say "we are DONE with waiting!!!
Some male Elders support them, others do boykot them.....
So the whole Native society is splintering into fractions - some along tribal and clan lines some along gender lines...
Gender: Gender is not what anatomy you have in your pants, but what you do in daily life. And there is yet another problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The unemployed father that stays home with the kids and cooks the hamburgers is now teased to be a woman.
Sooooo he will rather hang around watch TV and do absolutely NOTHING, and call a female neighbour to change a diaper.
He would loose his manhood or his face - (I could make a joke here...)
The young mother working in the store or on a construction crew is a man - but not a Real man but a "bleader" She will come home with bags full of groceries to a messy house and a hungry baby......Unless an Aunty takes care of her man and her kid while she gets the $$$
The gay guys that shacked up together in the fields over there are just guys. No problem. They will however get teased as to who did the dishes yesterday evening.
The 2 young females living together ... depending who does what on any given day .... who is the man = who hunts? what??? ?Both went on the local Rabbit shoot??? Both work at the gas station fixing broken motors?WHAAT??? They own the thing and the guy working ther is not the boss but their employee?
The transgendered person is = whatever he/ she decides. Penis or yoni does not figure other than in the bathroom.
Then there are queres, that have the status of berdache/ diviner/ healer, name-giver of new babies. To have your first name given by a 2 Spirited person is good luck.
For them it used to come down to are they wearing a skirt or pants? Are they going out to hunt and fish - or stay home and sow cloths and cook. Did they have their declaration ceremony?
A berdache could have a husband or a wife - - - or in Lakota society a husband and a whole slue of wifes....... wifes cook and take care of the lodge. Wife as a term does not mean sexualy exclusive partner. You could sell wifes and or trade them away.....
Now all the young women wear pants and go out to the office and the Elders are just lost. One told me the other day: The white people complain of the ice up north breaking apart and drifting away. Our culture is breaking apart and drifting away.

Mi-Shell said:

Now all the young women wear pants and go out to the office and the Elders are just lost. One told me the other day: The white people complain of the ice up north breaking apart and drifting away. Our culture is breaking apart and drifting away.

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Perhaps the dogma of those cultures is breaking apart but the truth will always be there if we can all look past all this gender stuff.

One of the worst things that westerners do is to the whole 'noble savage' bit, assuming that all 1st Nation people/tribes are somehow enlightened or that their 'ways' are somehow fundamentally better than their own. Its all hogwash - we are all human. Change will come from the Elders so perhaps we need to wait until a generation or two until the Elders have lived through different times of gender equality??

Mi-Shell said:

Hu hu hu !
ARE they EVER protesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And founding drumming groups that drum soooo loud that the "traditionalists' toe nails fly of!!!
The whole scene is in uproar! Women are saying NO and NO more sex and going on strike. Others say to hell withthe old guys an do things anyway. Elder women say "Be patient!!!!! Do not push too hard"
Young women say "we are DONE with waiting!!!
Some male Elders support them, others do boykot them.....
So the whole Native society is splintering into fractions - some along tribal and clan lines some along gender lines...

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I would have been surprised if there hadn't been protests like that at all. Thanks for telling us so much about them!

In most parts, the reactions sound pretty familiar compared to other protests of women against rules that feel limiting to them. But I guess it's not easy for many Native women to be in that position. I assume that if they protest against male Natives, they are accused by some of not honoring Native traditions and trying to become a part of the white mainstream or something along such lines? And (I imagine) on the other side are white feminists (for lack of a better term) who don't exactly spend much time and attention on Native women's concerns, and/or who accuse them of making too many compromises with Native men... I suppose that's a difficult position to be in for Native women if they want to do justice to both their traditions AND their desires for more influence/power/range of behaviors! (I am extrapolating from what I have learned about other minorities, e.g. African Americans, here, so I may of course be wrong in my assumptions.)

Mi-Shell said:

Gender: Gender is not what anatomy you have in your pants, but what you do in daily life.

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That seems like a simple rule, but it ends up being as complicated as the system of dividing gender along the lines of anatomy, doesn't it? In both cases, there are just soooo many exceptions! (Personally, I find that very wonderful, but I can also see how others may find it confusing and overwhelmingly complex.)

Mi-Shell said:

And there is yet another problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The unemployed father that stays home with the kids and cooks the hamburgers is now teased to be a woman.
Sooooo he will rather hang around watch TV and do absolutely NOTHING, and call a female neighbour to change a diaper.
He would loose his manhood or his face - (I could make a joke here...)

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It's examples like this one that show us quite clearly that traditionally female/feminine behaviors are still valued a lot less than traditionally male/masculine ones. It also shows us quite clearly that gender is nearly always about power...
In my opinion, it's a pity for everyone involved, because they ALL lose out in the end (don't tell me that many of those guys wouldn't jump on the chance to feel more useful by taking care of the kids and food if it wasn't seen as a threat to their maleness!)...
(Not that this sort of thinking was only happening among Natives! I see much of it in white people as well, including people from my own communities, so I'm by no means pointing fingers to just one sort of humans.)

I could say a lot more about gender and our (as in "us humans") various concepts of it, but I don't want to derail the thread. I know not everyone finds that topic as fascinating as I do.

Mi-Shell said:

Then there are queres, that have the status of bredache/ diviner/ healer, name-giver of new babies. To have your first name given by a 2 Spirited person is good luck.

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Does that go for every Native tribe?

I only remember that the term "berdache" is considered derogatory by many (because of its association with male prostitution, as Wikipedia tells me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit).

Mi-Shell said:

Now all the young women wear pants and go out to the office and the Elders are just lost. One told me the other day: The white people complain of the ice up north breaking apart and drifting away. Our culture is breaking apart and drifting away.

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I can relate to this feeling...
It all comes back to the question of how to deal with both the desire to keep traditions alive (especially as a minority group) and the desire to make room for change...

Cat* I would judge your assumptions as correct, from what I know/ experienced.
however, in matrilineal tribes the situation is quite different.
North West from here is a Mohawk res, there things are different and then again among the Iroquois it is different again. They have woman chiefs and female Clan leaders and men are sometimes home and work and mom is out making money.....

This is a fascinating book about "Two Spirited Persons"
> The Spirit and the Flesh
Sexual Diversity in American Indian Culture by Walter L. Williams.

Hello everyone
Mi-Shell asked if I would post this here, so here goes

Mi-Shell said:

victoria.star said:

Hiya.
I did a reading for Yirabeth in the IDS thread and I kept seeing a horned ancestor coming through.
I am having a challenging time defining WHATa horned ancestor is...
Any suggestions?
Thanks!

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Mi-Shell said:

Oh, How Powerful!
Now; how much time do you have? can you come over and live in my house for a week, so that I can tell you just the rough outline of the shamanic concept of "Horned Ancestor"
1) Horns in visions and trance always mean:more than ordinary Knowledge = shamanic wisdom. Here in N.America First Nations Medicine People wear Antlers and Buffalo Horns, In Siberia we wear Deer and Hart Antlers and in brittain you have the Horned God and the Female Ellen of the Ways" Check the Greenwood Tarot treads for the "Ancestor" and Justice and 9 of stones. Gooooogle Green man, Cerunos, gundestrup cauldron for Celtic infos
I could imagine, that you saw an Ancestor of your personal lineage or a "deserted Ancestor = no more decendants follow the ways and so he/ she is forgotten, neglected, but spied you and sees you as worthy and capable and..... may become a tutolary Spirit.

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