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Christine  Christine is offline
Join Date: 30 Aug 2003
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 80

Mary -- yes, I am referring to the way Etteilla portrays his Disks not only on the 10 but also on his Disk royals. Are they the nobility of the North Node, or are they the nobility of the Earth, as in Malkuth?

Yes I understand how he was indicating the Part of Fortune on his card. Yes I agree that what we see pictured are the planets on the Disks moving outward from the Sun on the Ace, leading to the North and South Nodes on the 8 and 9. I do not disagree with what is pictured on the cards, but what ideas and esoteric values to associate with those pictures.

I fail to see how Etteilla is departing from the 12/7/3 pattern I was talking about above, which is a standard "tell" pointing at the structure of all magical alphabetics rooted in Hebrew.

On the same page where he's quoting "kabbalistic numbers bearing signs and planets", and talking about the intelligences/shem angels (2nd Cahir suppliment, p. 161-2) Etteilla himself says that his first 12 "pages" are the signs, and then the last 10 "pages" are the Planets.

But in his time there weren't 10 Planets, there were 7! Whatever he says, it turns out he is in practice defaulting the 12/7/3 pattern (and he chose these obscure astrological derivative points to fill the last three cards, to complete the decave.)

It's all in who is reading the text. Someone who knows about magical alphabets will see a page on which there three direct references to Hebrew and they will say, "OK, Etteilla is pointing something out here that I need to be conversant with."

Meanwhile, please direct me to the evidence that the users of this pack, in the time it was fresh and new, had enough sophistication to understand concepts like North Node, South Node and Part of Fortune in the context of a Tarot deck. How did he include them in his divinatory matrix? Is there any text to tell us how these symbols integrate into his style of use? Where does he talk about the ways they affect the other three suits in the numbers 8, 9 and 10?

To me it seems just as easy to rule out astrological sophistication among this pack's users as it is to rule out kabbalistic sophistication.

But among the makers, the people who are manipulating these symbols for the widest audience possible, would they not have knowledge that this same symbol has other applications in Kabbalah, and also in Alchemy as well? Would they not expect some of their users to see this symbol in its larger identity? I am not assuming Etteilla was stupid, or dense, or disconnected from his environment.

That alchemy is intimately entwined with kabbalah is well-established, witness the excellent little handbook: _The Alchemical Keys to Masonic Ritual_ by Timothy Hogan. Another larger presentation is _The Tower of Alchemy_ by David Goddard. This is the type of resource that will help us place Etteilla's contribution in context, IMHO. All around Etteilla there was a magical ferment brewing that was Kabbalistic, Hermetic, Alchemical, Astrological, Egyptian and magical.

Just notice: Even as Etteilla denied being a member of the contemporary secular lodges of Paris, he openly declared his "brotherhood" with the old-school Jacobite lineage right in that quote shared with Mary above! I find it hard to believe that anybody who knew the politics of the time would expect him to stick his neck out any farther than that.

But of course that means that you'll have to disprove my contention that Etteilla participated in the very fertile Hermetic, Masonic, Egyptian, Kabbalistic, Scottish Rite, post-Swedenborgian enthusiasm of his time. Perhaps I am alone in having these thought at this venue?
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