Horary Readings Round 7 - Questions

Ronia said:

Minderwiz, how did I do here? Did I manage to get something right? LOL

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Hi Ronia,

You don't give a specific question - but as your letter was your main concern, I'll follow through with your chain of reasoning. Firstly your letter is indeed signified by Jupiter in Gemini. That's the good news. The bad news is that Jupiter is in the eighth House which is not a good placement at all.

The issue becomes, what does the eighth house represent here. Do we read it as the eighth of the radical chart or do we read it as the second of a turned chart. That very much depends on the precise phrasing of the question. If the question is on the lines of 'Does he have my letter in his possession....?' . then turning the chart is a reasonable step and the placement is in his second house, so answer would be 'Yes'.

However if the question is simply along the lines of 'Where is my letter then it has to be taken as the eighth house of the radical chart. In which case, it is in the rubbish - the eighth also ruling waste (in the sense of things that are no longer wanted). This is why time taken get the question right and clearly stating what you want to know is one of the most important stages of horary.

Which 'question' you take will largely determine how you see Mercury in the chart. Or indeed whether you need to consider Mercury at all. Mercury has three rulerships in this, of which the eleventh House, might be the most relevant in the light of previous horaries on this question, as the eleventh rules Friends, and you sent the letter via a mutual friend. Again you really only need to consider Mercury as the mutual friend if your question specifically involved the friend, or you need to consider translation of light where a third person may well help the matter come to effect, or possibly if one of the significators is Peregrine and may need a friend's help (and there is evidence that the friend might be effective - translation of light).

The crucual thing with the analysis that you put forward is that it uses a turned chart and I'm not sure that the question warrants it (mainly because I don't know what the question is specifically) but if it's just 'Where is my letter and what can I expect?', tuurning the chart is not really warranted. It's mislaid at best (in a non-effective house) or thrown out with the rubbish at worst.

If you actually used the phrase 'my letter to him' in the question, then you should certainly investigate his significator, Mars. Now Mars is actually applying to a square with Jupiter, from Pisces (one of Jupiter's signs). Squares may still lead to the matter being effected, so he's coming to retrieve it but he's got problems and delays in doing that. So if your question was ''What did he do with my letter?' the answer is he threw it away (probably by accident) but he's now trying to get it back.

It's difficult to go further without knowing the precise nature of your question. The basic strong advice is to make sure you know precisely what the question is (not just a general idea) before you cast the chart and read it. It makes a major difference to how the Astrologer goes about answering the question.

If you did have a more precise formulation of the question then let me know and I'll go through the chart with you. But as it stands we could go down a number of possible variant paths, some of which will use Mercury and some which won't. The same goes with Mars. Personally I think your question should describe the letter as 'my letter to him' because that is important context to the whole issue.

Gosh, I'm sorry for the confusion! I wanted to try practising more dignities as they stumble me with horaries! I asked "What happened with my letter to him and what to expect in the near future?", I was thinking about my letter to him, what has happened with it, what will happen if anything, because the event I wanted him to join me for is in March and if he doesn't respond in a month, it will be no use to respond at all, in which case the previous charts would have been wrong.

Ronia said:

I asked "What happened with my letter to him and what to expect in the near future?", I was thinking about my letter to him, what has happened with it, what will happen if anything, because the event I wanted him to join me for is in March and if he doesn't respond in a month, it will be no use to respond at all, in which case the previous charts would have been wrong.

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Thanks for the clarification - I could see so many options available for interpretation that I'd have ended up confusing both you and myself.

Taking the question as stated, there's two clear parts:

'What happened to my letter to him....'

The simplest approach is to take the chart as it stands. And Frawley recommends alwasy keeping things simple. For this part we need to look at the significator of the letter, Jupiter. It's in the radical 8th House, where it is also in it's Detriment, though it does have dignity by Terms and Face. It's also very slow as it's approaching it's station Retrograde (which we can tell because it's just past it's trine to the Sun. Finally it's Occidental - in the sky after the Sun has set. All in all things couldn't get much worse for it. The eighth house is associated with Death....the death of a letter is throwing it in the trash (the eighth is the house of waste), or losing it.

Now some more complex considerations;

Firstly the cusp of the eighth is in Taurus and Jupiter is in Gemini, so the debility of being in the eighth must be reduced - it's not completely lost or destroyed.

Secondly Venus (your significator) is applying to a trine with Jupiter. Both are benefics, as well as being significators here and the trine is a benefic aspect. If the trine was separating, I'd take that as simply confirming you have sent the letter with the best of intentions. The application though suggests that something does lie in the future, concerning the letter and that something is not 'bad'.

Thirdly his significator, Mars is also applying to an aspect with Jupiter - this time through a square. A separating aspect might indicate that he intentially threw the letter into the trash. The applying aspect implies that he will have, or wants to have dealings with the letter in the future. The square indicates those dealings will be subject to delays, obstruction and difficulties.

There seems to be some mutual desire to keep the letter in play between you and him.

Looking at your two significators:

Venus for you, is in Aquarius, in th fourth. She has dignity by Terms and Face, so she's reasonably strong and well placed being angular. But again she's not in the sign of the IC and she is oriental (a debility for Venus) and has entered the Sun's beams. She's not visible because she's too near the Sun and by extension, you can't see what's going on clearly.

Mars is in Pisces, It's the Triplicity ruler, so there's essential dignity and the fifth is a succedent house. It's the House of Good Fortune and the Joy of Venus (your significator) and Mars is in the Terms of Venus and the exaltation of Venus. That suggests some positive feeling for you by him (which possibly explains the desire to get hold of the letter ). Mars too has just entered the Sun's beams (as the Sun is faster than Mars, it will ovetake Mars)

.....and what to expect in the near future

This is the difficult bit

Leaving aside those applying aspects for the moment, let's look at the Moon and it's recent and future aspects. The movement of the Moon is thought to give a description of what's been going on and therefore throws some light onto the question.

The Moon's recent aspects are a conjunction to Saturn (ruler of the IC and Aquarius) and the dispositor of Venus. We could see this as The Moon indicating that something was carried from your home, with good intentions and having something to do with your work/career/hopes for a career (square to the Sun). There have been difficulties, as the square to the Sun is not an easy aspect. Now things might be turning favourable (sextile to Fortune) and the aspect of the future is a square to Mercury, dispositor of Jupiter. Still difficulties to come though. The Moon makes no direct aspect to any of the main significators (Venus, Jupiter, Mars) so there's no suggestion of anything being effected by translation of light.

That leaves the applying aspects from Venus and from Mars. Venus will complete the aspect first, she's both faster and further ahead in sign degree. So Venus will prohibit Mars from perfecting it's application. The easiest interpretation is that you get your hands on the letter first. That doesn't make sense, unless he has sent it back to you with a negative answer and now is trying to 'withdraw it'.

It's difficult to make a clear interpretation here. Other than both of you want that letter. If you do receive it back with a negative answer, then you might try another contact because he's changed his mind. If you don't receive anything, try assuming he's lost the letter and make contact again. If the remaining time frame does not permit that, then you will have unintentionally prohibited the contact with him. Don't give up, try again.

Ouch. It doesn't look like I got much right. I'm so confused by the dignities. Ugh.

As about the chart, then it would mean the previous one was not true... This is the first time it happens with my charts. Hm. Anyways, the thing is there is no way I could contact him again about the same thing. there is possibility for a personal contact in the fall when we move back to Canada but I tried to cast a chart today and it wasn't radical. I'll try again. I'm still willing to learn those dignities though!

Thank you, Minderwiz, for your patience.

Addenda

Since I posted my thoughts above I've taken the trouble to recheck both Frawley and Lilly.

Frawley

Frawley does indeed urge to keep things as simple as possible bbut in his chapter on the third house he does actually say that if the ruler of the third is in the house of the person to whom you sent the letter, or the second house from his house, then it is in his/her possession. So for Frawley you were right to treat the letter as being in his possession and I'm wrong in treating it as being lost or wasted. The difference it would make is simply that he's struggling to deal with it (Mars square Jupiter) for one reason or another but will get round to it. The only issue I have with this view is the Venus to Jupiter trine which clearly involves you in a future event to do with the letter (not a reply to the letter which would be signified by Lord 9, which is Mercury.

Now that would bring Mercury into the equation as it's applying to Mars. Frawley specifically says that if an aspect perfects after a change in sign, then it means that something will only happen after a change in circumstances. So it might mean that he will reply to your letter but only when he's sorted out his feelings about the letter (applying square from Mars to Jupiter). That might make sense but it still doesn't deal with the Venus/Jupiter trine/

Lilly

Lilly doesn't use the third house for messages, he uses the fifth. In a short section buried in the usual fifth house issues of children and pregnancy, he has a section entitled ''Of Embassadors or Messengers'. While a lot of this is taken up with sending an Ambassador or a Messenger to someone else, he does mention what can only be interpreted as the seventeenth century equivalent of the Postal service.

Concerning the sending of Foot-Posts, Lackeys, etc....whether they shall come to their journey's end or safe to the place unto which they are sent, behold the Lord of the Ascendant and the Moon, and if either one or the other be in the seventh or one or both apply to the Lord or the seventh he then went safe to his journey's end.'

Elsewhere in this section he distinguishes between the messenger (Lord 5) and the message (the Moon)

He goes on to say that if there's reception between Lord 5 and Lord 7 or a sextile or a trine, then the messanger and the message was well received. If there's a square or oposition, the messenger was well received but not the message - the receiving party will make some excuse for not doing what's asked of him.

Now you actually sent your message via a mutual friend who acted as the Foot-post or Lackey, so following Lilly the friend should be treated as Lord 5 not Lord 11 (as I've done up to now).

Now Jupiter is Lord 5 and he's in aspect to the ruler of the seventh, Mars. There is reception as Mars is in Pisces, so I'd take this to mean that the messenger (your mutual friend) and the message were well received. The square would be mitigated because of reception, but there might be some remaining lack of enthusiasm or uncertaintly.or desire to make some excuse not to do anthing about it.

Given that Venus is applying to Jupiter we now have an allocation of significators which would explain that. You will meet/hear from your mutual friend and messneger in the near future. That is likely to be a pleasant experience given the trine.

That leaves me with two issues of concern. Jupiter's parlous state might mean that as a messenger he was not very convincing or didn't do his job particularly well and despite reception, the doubts overcome any desire to reply favourably - though bear in mind that Mars is in the Exaltation Terms of Venus = foot dragging springs to mind.

The second issue is the Moon. It doesn't apply to Lord 7, nor is it in the seventh House. It's next aspect is to Mercury, Lord 9. So might this mean that the message will lead to a reply. Again by the time it reaches Mercury it will also be applying to Mars, though it will have to change signs to perfect.

Sorry about any confusion. I'm not totally convinced by Frawley but the Lilly treatment seems to make sense.

Wow, Minderwiz, I find this very interesting! I actually read Frawley a while ago but don't remember details and Lily is difficult to read so each time I need to check something I get lost in translation. But thank you very much for these clarifications. I'll get back to the chart and try to follow. Regardless what happens, I find this an interesting case and I kind of got into deciphering the charts. This one looked difficult to me but I want to learn so I'm going back to it, now armed with the new info! But the 5th as messengers is something I'd have never thought of!

P.S. I already start to think he's very unlikely to respond. But he may like the event itself. Or the letter, who knows. It's all very confusing. I took the Moon as his worker to whom I sent the letter as she is a woman... And she was in the rulership of Mars (him).

P.P.S. I\m also confused by the Venus trine to Jupiter. As I wrote, I have no intention to write another letter nor do I have a reason to do it, to justify such an action.

Ronia said:

P.P.S. I\m also confused by the Venus trine to Jupiter. As I wrote, I have no intention to write another letter nor do I have a reason to do it, to justify such an action.

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Well if we go by Lilly, it means that you and the 'messenger' will meet...possibly she will report back or there may be some other occasion for you to meet. Incidentally, 'meeting' does not have to be face to face, it could be by telephone or internet or even letter.

If we go by Frawley...I don't think there's a sensible answer other than you and the letter will meet again...but how, I find difficult to imagine.

Incidentally on a second and third reading of Lilly, I think he meant that the reception leads to the messenger being well received but he finds some excuse not to go along with what the message is proposing. He only uses the word reception in the sentence relating to trines and sextiles, however the sentence relating to oppositions and squares follows immediately after, so the reception condition probably applies to both.

Interesting, no doubt... I'm lost with this letter. LOL I've been re-reading all you posted carefully and trying to squeeze something out of this chart. Not very successfully. I guess the next month will show and this will be the end of this chapter.

hi minderwiz
how are you

i am curious to know about my life purpose in this incarnation and i was wondering if you could help me understand it through my chart ? i don't know if you practice life purpose readings through charts or not . if you do i would love to know anything that you could pick up for me ,any details that could make me understand where i am coming from and where i am headed in this life. actually i have few details that i keep getting through feelings, dreams, visions (in meditations) etc that make me believe certain things that i feel i need to do. they might be subconscious remains from previous incarnations or clues to identify my purpose to be here on this earth and what i am supposed to do going forward. i would love love to discuss this if you don't mind reading my chart for this purpose. i'll pm you my birth details if you are fine reading on this topic for me

cheers
safari

safari said:

hi minderwiz
how are you

i am curious to know about my life purpose in this incarnation and i was wondering if you could help me understand it through my chart ? i don't know if you practice life purpose readings through charts or not . if you do i would love to know anything that you could pick up for me ,any details that could make me understand where i am coming from and where i am headed in this life. actually i have few details that i keep getting through feelings, dreams, visions (in meditations) etc that make me believe certain things that i feel i need to do. they might be subconscious remains from previous incarnations or clues to identify my purpose to be here on this earth and what i am supposed to do going forward. i would love love to discuss this if you don't mind reading my chart for this purpose. i'll pm you my birth details if you are fine reading on this topic for me

cheers
safari

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I know that some Astrologers do life purpose readings but it's not something I've done and I'm not sure that I would know how to go about one. It's not that I don't find the area interesting, I do, so it would hold an interest for me. But how I would go about it, I really am not sure.

It might be something that comes up in my course in Hellenistic Astrology, as one of its 'children' is Jyotish or Vedic Astrology, which does have some links to Kharma and destiny. If I do come across something that would be relevant, I'll be a little bit more confident and I'll get back to you.