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kalliope  kalliope is offline
Join Date: 09 May 2005
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 1,343

Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post
As mentioned in the earlier post your birth is nocturnal 'but' and the 'but' is that the Moon has set and the Sun is nearing the horizon. This is a situation where Porphyry says it's not clear which of the two Lights dominate. Porphyry mentions that in that case the Ascendant can be taken as the 'Ultimate Ruler' and indeed Delphic Oracle suggests that the Ascendant is used.

However, Porphyry only cites the Ascendant as being used when both Sun and Moon are in Decline in the West. He says that if the Moon is in Decline in the West but the Sun is approaching the eastern horizon, then the Sun should be chosen. He adds that if both planets are below the horizon but in an angular or succedent house, then the Moon should be chosen because it is the Light of Sect.

With your chart, both are under the horizon, the Sun is in the second place - which is a succedent house, and the Moon is in the sixth, a Declining, or Cadent House,

If I use the quadrant house system that bears Porpyry's name, the Sun is in the First house, though some 25 degrees from the Ascendant; the Moon is in the sixth House though about 14 degrees from the Descendant - but crucially the Sun is going in the right direction and the Moon is going in the wrong direction.

So I'm going to take the Sun as the Ultimate Ruler, though I have to state that I'm not very confident of that, though more so than for the Moon and Ascendant.
I follow your reasoning here, and think it's as sound as any. All one can do is pick a ruler and go ahead with delineation, and then see how it pans out. I'm sure a Hellenistic astrologer with a lot of experience would develop preferences for these situations over time.

I agree that my chart is just plain messy for this calculation, and remember being similarly confused when looking at the guidelines for Pars Hyleg/alcochoden calculations.

That makes Jupiter the 'Managing Director' and indeed the Chief of Staff to the Managing Director, as Jupiter rules the Sun's sign of Sagittarius and also the Bounds in which the Sun falls.

Mars is the Ascendant Ruler (and along with Mercury) he's in the Ascendant. So Mars is best placed to steer the Nativity but using the map and instructions provided by Jupiter. In business terms, Mars is the Chief Administrative Officer.
So, roughly speaking, Jupiter will mostly determine where I'm going in life, and what my life should be about, etc., and Mars is the one who will do his best to get me there, using his own methods?

The ruler of Fortune is Mercury, who is also in the first. But whilst Mercury is well placed, the Lot is not. It's in an adverse House to Mercury (and the Ascendant) being in the eighth. Taking advantages of opportunities and avoiding the risks that come your way may not be easy and may be something of a 'seat of the pants' experience.
Noted, and can see this as being somewhat true. Not because of any particular examples, I guess, but I'd say that while I haven't been unlucky in life so far, I'm not someone who is good at finding opportunities under every rock.

The Trigon Lords for the Sun are: Jupiter, Sun and Saturn in that order.

Jupiter and Sun are in Succedent Houses, Saturn is in a Cadent or a Declining House. That seems to suggest that it's the Last part of your life where the troubles will be felt (assuming that this method has any validity at all).
To make sure I'm understanding this correctly: is it because Saturn is generally unfit that the third of life he rules will be the one to watch out for?

Finally the prenatal lunation was a New Moon in Scorpio, so the ruler is Mars

Possible Supreme Rulers are:

Mars- Ruler of Ascendant and prenatal lunation - Angular, Rising, Direct, and in it's own places.

Mercury - Lord of Fortune - Angular, Rising and Direct and in the place of a sectmate

Jupiter -First Trigon Lord - Succedent, Rising and Direct, In it's own Place

Mars seems to be the winner there,

Indeed Mars is also the Almuten of the Chart, using Lilly's method and also is shown as such in Morinus.

So in summary, Mars is the strongest planet and is doing the steering. Jupiter the MD is in Pisces, trining Mars and in a slightly later terminology is in mutual reception with Mars. The only issues seem to be trying to use what befalls you in a positive way, rather than simply being surprised by it and making sure you keep doing that in the last third of your life.
Okay, a couple of questions:
1) I'm sorry if I'm overlooking something, but how are Mars & Jupiter in mutual reception? I understand that it's not a Hellenistic term, but I'd still like to know which "dignities" you're referring to. Is this a sectmate thing?

2)Is there an easy dignity-type chart you could point to for Hellenistic references for things like Trigon lords, sectmates, etc.?

3) To understand your reasoning with regard to the bolded sentence above: You've determined it's the last third of life that could be problematic because weak, unfit Saturn will be influencing it, correct? But then the potential troubles you've mentioned for this period are due to my poorly placed Lot of Fortune. Why? Wouldn't the Lot be troublesome for my whole life? Or, alternatively, why wouldn't the last third of my life be plagued by troubles related to my Saturn being unable to manage his duties?

Or, is it this: A) the Lot of Fortune being badly placed is one of my chart's clear problem areas when it comes to general effectiveness, and B) my weak Saturn ruling the last third of my life is the clearest problem related to rough time estimates, and so C) therefore it's reasonable to conclude that the likely culprit for troubles during this period will be the most obvious villian (LoF)?

Sorry if this is annoyingly persnickety.
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