Minderwiz
Our posts crossed - will Obama be OK?
Hellenistic Astrology
Marius Cojoc
Splendid ... Obama shall be.
Minderwiz
Barack Obama Details
OK Obama it is.
I've attached a preliminary chart and list of Lots. It's preliminary for several reasons.
Firstly I've followed early Hellenistic practice and used Whole Sign Houses for a topical chart. However, if we need to go into issues requiring a quadrant chart I would suggest Porphyry or Alcabitus as these seem to be the ones used in the Hellenistic era.
Secondly, I've left out the outers, Chiron, etc as these would not figure in any actual Hellenistic analysis - however, as I'm beginning to examine analysing the outers as though they were fixed stars and a number of current traditional Astrologers still include them in their charts, they might well be something you want to look at later.
Thirdly, over the Hellenistic period of around 700 years or so, the definitions of some Lots changed in terms of calculation planets and points. So you may have issues with some of the Lot definitions and I don't mind at all if you want to use an alternative formula - providing it's Hellenistic in origin.
I've not included any reference to fixed stars at the moment but they can be incorporated as and when we need.
OK Obama it is.
I've attached a preliminary chart and list of Lots. It's preliminary for several reasons.
Firstly I've followed early Hellenistic practice and used Whole Sign Houses for a topical chart. However, if we need to go into issues requiring a quadrant chart I would suggest Porphyry or Alcabitus as these seem to be the ones used in the Hellenistic era.
Secondly, I've left out the outers, Chiron, etc as these would not figure in any actual Hellenistic analysis - however, as I'm beginning to examine analysing the outers as though they were fixed stars and a number of current traditional Astrologers still include them in their charts, they might well be something you want to look at later.
Thirdly, over the Hellenistic period of around 700 years or so, the definitions of some Lots changed in terms of calculation planets and points. So you may have issues with some of the Lot definitions and I don't mind at all if you want to use an alternative formula - providing it's Hellenistic in origin.
I've not included any reference to fixed stars at the moment but they can be incorporated as and when we need.
Attachments
Marius Cojoc
Now I see that Obama chart is very tricky. No problem.
Because Helios and Selene are under the Earth, I shall not give either of one sect points (0). I think the chart favors Helios for sect rulership but I shall discuss this thread later.
Helios in his own domicile, and I shall give him gender points (4). Helios is not visible in the sky, and I shall not give him visiblilty points (0). Helios is in Kronos (sect membre) bound, and I shall give him bound points (2).
Selene is in a masculin zoidion, and I shall not give her gendre points (0). She's not visible in the sky and I shall not give her visiblilty points (0). Selene is in Hermes bound. Hermes is oriental to Helios and in the bound of Zeus (it will act in a diurnal way), so I shall not give her bound points (0).
6 points ? Pretty poor. Let's say the chart is diurnal and we add another 5 points to Helios for sect harmony. 11 points? If the planets which articulate the Part, don't gather at least 15 points, the Part will be essentialy debilitated. The points are just to guide us. In Obama chart, Part of Fortune was taken hostage by Part of Spirit. The accidental dignities are not for much help in our case, because the Parts are pretty bad affected.
The usual essential rejoicing conditions in the context of Parts are form by: sect (5), gender (4), visibility (3), bound (2) and orientality (1) and you cand add everything that derive from dichotomy. We can add as a essential rejoicing condition any configuration of the planets which articulate the Part with the Part itself.
In Obama chart, I'm pretty shore that if we search concret life events, we will find that Part of Fortune acted like Part of Spirit or the two Parts didn't spoke much when they were released. In general, the nocturnal Parts take over the diurnal Parts, but I don't think that for us is the case.
Because Helios and Selene are under the Earth, I shall not give either of one sect points (0). I think the chart favors Helios for sect rulership but I shall discuss this thread later.
Helios in his own domicile, and I shall give him gender points (4). Helios is not visible in the sky, and I shall not give him visiblilty points (0). Helios is in Kronos (sect membre) bound, and I shall give him bound points (2).
Selene is in a masculin zoidion, and I shall not give her gendre points (0). She's not visible in the sky and I shall not give her visiblilty points (0). Selene is in Hermes bound. Hermes is oriental to Helios and in the bound of Zeus (it will act in a diurnal way), so I shall not give her bound points (0).
6 points ? Pretty poor. Let's say the chart is diurnal and we add another 5 points to Helios for sect harmony. 11 points? If the planets which articulate the Part, don't gather at least 15 points, the Part will be essentialy debilitated. The points are just to guide us. In Obama chart, Part of Fortune was taken hostage by Part of Spirit. The accidental dignities are not for much help in our case, because the Parts are pretty bad affected.
The usual essential rejoicing conditions in the context of Parts are form by: sect (5), gender (4), visibility (3), bound (2) and orientality (1) and you cand add everything that derive from dichotomy. We can add as a essential rejoicing condition any configuration of the planets which articulate the Part with the Part itself.
In Obama chart, I'm pretty shore that if we search concret life events, we will find that Part of Fortune acted like Part of Spirit or the two Parts didn't spoke much when they were released. In general, the nocturnal Parts take over the diurnal Parts, but I don't think that for us is the case.
Marius Cojoc
Each hermetic Part is connected with the essence of each planet. In our case, Selene is enable to provide selenar gifts. Selene can't act like Selene. Part of Fortune take over and assist the native in selenar issues. But, Part of Fortune is pretty debilitated, so the assit will come from the Part opposed and complemntary to it (Part of Spirit). Especially because of Selene, the Part of Fortune can't provide gifts related to her : possessions, reputation, privileges and so. The formulas don't reverse. The Part of Fortune is still Part of Fortune but it will act in a strange way, in a way that Part of Spirit does or it will not act at all. (6 points means to me that the Part can't be judge, it is almost undefined).
Minderwiz
I've read several Hellenistic texts and in none of them is point scoring used - though there are indeed references to the conditions that you mention. So I take it that you have taken the point scoring from a more modern commentary - Schmidt? Could you let me know the source of this please.
I hope that anyone reading the post recognises the use of the Greek names for the planets - I left them out in the thread so as not to cause too much confusion as we went. I will continue to use the Latin derivatives, for that reason, though strictly speaking, for authors who wrote in Greek, Marius is correct in using the Greek names.
Marius Cojoc
The point scoring sistem is not hellenistic in origin but the rejoicing conditions are. My knowledge derive from the paper called "De mysterio Dichotomiae", written by a master in ancient astrology, named "Elendiar".
Minderwiz
I'd like to know more about that, as I've not heard of it before. I did do a search and the only references I could find were both posts by you, one here and one on another forum. I did find a copy of Corpus Elendiaricum which was in Romanian and appeared to refer to Chiron and Lilith (so is not Hellenistic in origin). There may, of course be no connection between the two works.
I've certainly not come across the idea of the Lots 'reversing' when their ruler is debilitated so I want to know more!
Edited to add
Do you know of an English translation?
Marius Cojoc
Elendiar had the same teacher as Zoltan Mason. The paper that you mention is written by him. I know Schmidt work, I'm learning from it but Elendiar is also very special. Let's continue our journey with Obama tricky chart.
Minderwiz
Thank you
Yes the Obama chart presents challenges. The Ascendant Ruler, Saturn is retrograde in the twelfth place, though in it's own house and joy is trined by Mars from the eighth place. But let's start from the sect of the chart and the Predominator (ultimate ruler).
Marius Cojoc said:
I'll ignore the points for the moment and simply agree with you on the problem of both Moon (Selene) and Sun (Helios) being below the horizon but the chart favouring the Sun as being the ultimate ruler - quoting from Porphyry:
In a night chart the rules are as follows: If the Moon is rising in the east then it is clearly the ultimate ruler of the nativity. If however it is setting in the west but the Sun is under the horizon of the chart but approaching or near to the Ascendant then the Sun is chosen. In the case that both the Sun and Moon are in an angular or succedent (place) then the Moon will be picked as the ultimate ruler because it is the ruler of the sect. If however the Moon is declining in the West and the Sun is in an angular (place) then the Sun is chosen.
Now the Moon is in the fifth, which is a succedent place but the Su is angular in the seventh. What's more it's only 6 degrees below the horizon, so it's light is still visible (twilight).
So if we agree that the Sun is the ultimate ruler, then Saturn's further debility of being out of sect in the twelfth is mitigated. My understanding from my reading is that the Hellenistic Astrologers, didn't place as much emphasis on planets being in a sign of their own gender as the later Arab Astrologers did, so whilst it is indeed a masculine planet in a feminine sign I don't think we count that very heavily (especially as it's in one of it's own domains).
It is not a clear cut decision, as you said especially with the Moon both rising and in a succeedent sign - I have a sneaking suspicion that Schmidt would go for the Moon. We could look at both options Sun, and Moon if you wish and see which fits Obama's know career best.
