The Tarot symbols origin

Huck

Hi Huck,
Yes, Julius Schiller's star atlas is used for the Hierophant and Hermit links that were provided as a mock up for artists on a different thread here. The 1978 Fool was by Ellery Knight and I was the art director.

Thanks for the link to the Julius Hyginus star maps. The Julius Hyginus star map is a bit young, as you say, but are there any older European star maps available? Are there any copies of star maps from Ptolemy or Hipparchos? Will we need to rely on non-European sources for star maps used at the time the Tarot was created?

I believe that there must be other star maps that are earlier, but are there pictorial copies available? I say that because these pictures I have made of the drawings of Julius Hyginus are not complete and do not quite dipict the Tarot cards I have assigned the constellations to. Another style of art is suggested. A better fit is needed. Possibly more Ptolemic. Does anyone know of any actual pictorial examples of star maps earlier than Julius Hyginus?

... :) ... you've to understand a few things about Trionfi decks, the appearance of the name "Tarot" and also about the development of astrology and astronomy studies during 15th century, if you wish to follow your hypothesis. This might become quite time consuming.

First to the Trionfi decks: The use of this name for a specific sort of playing cards started for the perspective of current research in September 1440 ... or earlier, but this isn't proven.
For the name "Tarot": The use of similar names (Tarochi or Tarau) appeared first in 1505 in Ferrara and in the same year in Avignon. "Tarocchi" or "Tarot" forms followed some time later.

Tarot Research around 1980 was based on the hypothesis, that "Trionfi decks" were "Tarot decks", in the sense, that they had the same number of cards (78 in a 4x14+22 - structure) and similar motifs and a similar row of these motifs (though with differences), at least since 1450.

This hypothesis found stronger opposition since 2003.
According this alternative opinion there was a longer period of deck experiments with other numbers of trumps. Decks with 5x14-structure are discussed, decks with 16 and 20 trumps are suspected. As earliest surviving deck with 4x14+22 - structure the Boiardo Tarocchi poem of Matteo Maria Boiardo is accepted ... a plausible date for this production is as late as 1487. The content of this deck (motifs and suits) is quite different from the common Tarot).

For the moment there are researchers, which follow the old hypothesis, and there are researchers, which follow the alternative.

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Astronomy in 15th century (with special interest on Ferrara)

The new German emperor Frederick III (started 1439 and reigned till 1493, a long time) had specific interest in astrology and astronomy. Also he had splendid relations to the Enea Piccolomini, later pope Pius II, but earlier secretary of Frederick.
This led to the condition, that the university of Vienna had rather good astronomers, especially Georg von Peurbach, and later Peurbach's pupil Regiomontanus.

Peurbach gave astronomical lectures in Ferrara in c. 1448-1449. There was a specific young astronomer between his pupils, Pellegrino Prisciani, who later became of influence in Ferrara.

Around the same time a Ptolemy (a famous old astronomer) work became of great interest
in Rome, which was then ruled by Pope Nicholas, who sponsored the translation from Greek to Latin. This was a long work and it took years and it got a lot of critique.

When Piccolomini became pope in 1458, he demanded, that Peurbach as the true specialist should come to Italy. But Peurbach had just died, and so Regiomontanus came instead. This was 1461.

Meanwhile in interest in astronomy and the cosmological conditions (world maps, world globes etc.) was increased ... since 1454 Italy had peace and needed not so much money for its wars. Regiomontanus found great interest in Italy, especially in Ferrara (which was ruled by Borso d'Este then). Borso started to realize the Palazzo Schiffanoia as an expression of the increased astronomical interest since 1469, Regiomontanus had followed meanwhile a call of the king of Hungary, Matthias Corvinus.
Pellegrino Prisciani, meanwhile of influence, designed the program according the poem of an antique astrologer. This activity caused other astronomical projects in Ferrara, Ferrara had a book printing house with the focus on astronomical themes. Parallel in Nuremberg Regiomontanus, meanwhile back from Hungary, made an own publishing house for astronomical texts. This happened around 1472/74.

For the Hyginus text (realized by a German engraver) we have, that it is assumed, that it had a Ferrarese (lost) forerunner, made in the mid 1470s. The production has some internal logic, as this projects fits well with the Manilius text.

1470 is the year, when Italian book printing jumped to high numbers. We have other astronomical projects in Rome (1473-78), again with the participation of Regiomontanus (who died in Rome), astronomy had been of great interest then.

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Ferrara is proven to have taken a greater influence on the Trionfi card development. Especially it's remarkable, that they made creative side steps, away from common Tarot style to alternative decks like the Boiardo Tarocchi and the Sola Busca Tarocchi.

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For the two different interpretations of the Trionfi card development: The idea, that Tarot was ready in a fixed manner c. 1450, doesn't leave the chance of an influence of star pictures in the manner of the Hyginus texts.
The assumption of a longer creative development with a diversity of side steps allows much more freedom.
 

Cartomancer

I'm interested in your approach. I don't understand your attributions. For example, why would the Archer be Death? Why would the Virgin be the World?

Why would pictures of constellations appear on the Major Arcana Tarot cards?
The constellation Sagittarius the Archer is seen as the Death card in the Tarot because the creators of the Tarot had a concept that they wanted to encode in the cards. (Notice the crown of Corona Australis at the feet of Sagittarius, a symbol that appears in Death card images.) That code was likely known at the time of the creation of the Tarot. That code must have been a list of constellations that were important for some reason. That information was available to secret societies such as the Golden Dawn and Waite because Waite used that information in the creation of his deck as evidenced by Smith's rendering of Julius Schiller's constellation as the Hierophant, the Hermit, and other cards as well. I believe that Waite's placement of the Strength and Justice cards is an important correction because it brings his deck in conformity with the ancient list that I use. This tradition of secret information is for the most part hidden in plain sight in the Tarot cards themselves. The 22 cards of the Major Arcana correspond to other systems that for the most part use the same constellations in the same order. The Tarot is related to the Hebrew alphabet and has connections to the Mayan calendar as well.

Why would the Virgin (Virgo) be called the World? Is the word "World" a good nickname for Virgo, who was the goddess of wheat and agriculture to the ancient Greeks and Romans?

This approach might seem somewhat backwards because I am working from a list of constellations that pre-dates the Tarot, so I know what the Tarot Major Arcana is attempting to portray. For the most part I found that the Tarot is in close agreement to the ancient list of constellations I discovered through epigraphic research into the origins of the alphabet and the Tarot.
-Cartomancer, Lance Carter
 

Moonstranger

Hello Cartomancer,
Thanks for sharing the ideas and arguments. Actually, now I'm thinking that the symbols of Major Arcana are more "thinner" than just the constellations, what is shown in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
 

Cartomancer

Hello Cartomancer,
Thanks for sharing the ideas and arguments. Actually, now I'm thinking that the symbols of Major Arcana are more "thinner" than just the constellations, what is shown in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Hello Moonstranger, Please explain "thinner" as I don't understand the context. I also believe that there is a strong Egyptian connection involved in the origin of the alphabet and the Tarot.
 

Debra

Oh, I see, I misunderstood--thanks.
 

Cartomancer

... :) ... you've to understand a few things about Trionfi decks, the appearance of the name "Tarot" and also about the development of astrology and astronomy studies during 15th century, if you wish to follow your hypothesis. This might become quite time consuming...

For the Hyginus text (realized by a German engraver) we have, that it is assumed, that it had a Ferrarese (lost) forerunner, made in the mid 1470s. The production has some internal logic, as this projects fits well with the Manilius text.
************
For the two different interpretations of the Trionfi card development: The idea, that Tarot was ready in a fixed manner c. 1450, doesn't leave the chance of an influence of star pictures in the manner of the Hyginus texts.
The assumption of a longer creative development with a diversity of side steps allows much more freedom.

Huck,
It's true that the Hyginus text couldn't have influenced the development of the Tarot MA pictures, but too bad that the Ferrarese version was lost. This theory of mine only involves a Major Arcana of 22 cards, so other variations probably aren't applicable unless they have the same or similar pictures. It is my contention that the list of constellations used for the Tarot pictures existed for thousands of years and that the Tarot is the modern version of that list.

I did a comparison between the early Tarot MA pictures and the Johann Bayer star maps and found little support for my theory. The star maps of Johann Bayer, (Uranometria, 1603), have less similarity to the early Tarot pictures in the card group of the selected set than do the maps by Julius Hyginus. Anyway, here is a study of the Johann Bayer star maps as Tarot pictures:

The constellation Auriga by Johann Bayer as the CHARIOT card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/AURIGA-Bayer-CHARIOT-388807132
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The constellation Bootes by Johann Bayer as the FOOL card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/BOOTES-Bayer-FOOL-388807357
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The constellation Capricorn by Johann Bayer as the DEATH card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CAPRICORN-Bayer-DEVIL-388807617
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The constellation Cassiopeia by Johann Bayer as the EMPRESS card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CASSIOPEIA-Bayer-EMPRESS-388807820
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The constellation Cepheus by Johann Bayer as the EMPEROR card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CEPHEUS-Bayer-EMPEROR-388807979
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The constellation Hercules by Johann Bayer as the STRENGTH card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/HERCULES-Bayer-STRENGTH-388808139
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The constellation Sagittarius by Johann Bayer as the DEATH card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/SAGITTARIUS-Bayer-DEATH-388808370
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The constellation Virgo by Johann Bayer as the WORLD card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/VIRGO-Bayer-WORLD-388808907
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The constellation Ophiuchus by Johann Bayer as the Hermit card in the Tarot.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/OPHIUCHUS-Bayer-HERMIT-388809127

It appears as if the star maps by Johann Bayer bear less resemblance to the Tarot picture set that I postulate, so these star maps are too young for this study.
-Cartomancer, Lance Carter
 

Debra

Ok, I'm wondering if you're talking about astrological references in the very early decks (Marseille, Visconti, etc) or the 1900's Waite-Smith deck.
 

Huck

Huck,
It's true that the Hyginus text couldn't have influenced the development of the Tarot MA pictures, but too bad that the Ferrarese version was lost. This theory of mine only involves a Major Arcana of 22 cards, so other variations probably aren't applicable unless they have the same or similar pictures. It is my contention that the list of constellations used for the Tarot pictures existed for thousands of years and that the Tarot is the modern version of that list.

I did a comparison between the early Tarot MA pictures and the Johann Bayer star maps and found little support for my theory. The star maps of Johann Bayer, (Uranometria, 1603), have less similarity to the early Tarot pictures in the card group of the selected set than do the maps by Julius Hyginus. Anyway, here is a study of the Johann Bayer star maps as Tarot pictures:

Hm.

The second interpretation with less special cards for the early Trionfi decks involves the same known cards and pictures as the other interpretation, which assumes 22 special cards. Also it uses the same literary documents.
There are just two different interpretations of the same facts ... it's rather common, that facts are occasionally interpreted differently by researchers. The facts are published and well known by both groups of researchers, just the evaluation is different.

In the recent past (a few years ago) the researcher Diane O'Donovan offered the idea, that the Tarot cards developed from earlier Arabic star pictures (14th century and older). She saw a context between the Arabic Compass and the cards (especially those of the Charles VI Tarocchi). In the case, that I understood her correctly, she saw 16 star picture elements used for the wind-rose of the compass (it was difficult to understand her arguments). A 17th element was used for the middle in her opinion.

The Charles VI deck has survived with 16 special cards and a court card ... the court card presented the middle in Diane O'Donovan's opinion.

In my own opinion the Charles VI was modeled according the 16 well known chess figures. I would regard Chess as a major influence, which accompanied the Trionfi and Tarot card development. But this doesn't exclude other influences, especially one of the "Trionfi" poem of Petrarca. And the compass with its wind-rose and related star pictures is also not impossible.
It was a common feature in the medieval world to operate with double-meanings in their systems.
 

Cartomancer

Ok, I'm wondering if you're talking about astrological references in the very early decks (Marseille, Visconti, etc) or the 1900's Waite-Smith deck.

Actually I talking about constellational references in very early decks as well as the Waite-Smith deck.

There are no existing star maps from the time that the Tarot was created that can be used to compare to the Major Arcana of the Tarot. Perhaps there are buildings such as churches that have constellational art on walls or ceilings.

Since the Waite-Smith deck was created after the Hyginus, Bayer, and Schiller star maps were published, then we can assume that Waite and Smith were able to consult those star maps when creating their Tarot deck.

Can we find any trace of Schiller's star atlas in the Waite-Smith Tarot deck? Let me submit the following mock-up drawings of the Hierophant and the Hermit using the art of Julius Schiller. Do you think that the art of Julius Schiller influenced the Hierphant and Hermit cards presented here?

Celestial art from Coelum Stellatum Christianum by Julius Schiller as model for HIEROPHANT card in Waite's Tarot deck.- Lance Carter
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/Schiller-HIEROPHANT-389003307

Celestial art from Coelum Stellatum Christianum by Julius Schiller as model for the HERMIT card in Waite's Tarot deck.
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/Schiller-HERMIT-389004840

So what is your opinion? Did the star atlas of Julius Schiller have an influence on the Waite-Smith Tarot deck?
 

Cartomancer

Can we find any trace of Schiller's star atlas in the Waite-Smith Tarot deck? Let me submit the following mock-up drawings of the Hierophant and the Hermit using the art of Julius Schiller. Do you think that the art of Julius Schiller influenced the Hierophant and Hermit cards presented here?
So what is your opinion? Did the star atlas of Julius Schiller have an influence on the Waite-Smith Tarot deck?

Here is a mock-up of the TEMPERANCE card from Coelum Stellatum Christianum. It appears to be the Angel Michael at the North pole over the stars of Draco. Remember that the Angel Michael threw the dragon (Draco) out of the heavens (and took its place in Julius Schiller's star atlas). Notice how the Angel Michael's feet are in the darker cloudy area to the right, which represents the water of the Milky Way. Also notice that the North Pole and Polaris in Schiller's art are at the exact position of the bright light at the top of a mountain in the Waite-Smith version of the TEMPERANCE card. Also notice that the scales of justice on Julius Schiller's star map have turned into cups on the Waite-Tarot TEMPERANCE card. The symbols are there, but rearranged. - Lance Carter

TEMPERANCE
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/Schiller-TEMPERANCE-389029676