Chosson?

Shalott

OK, I've read this deck mentioned several times and I saw it mentioned on Camoin's website...what's it's story? I'm looking now at the usual European stores (like Alidastore), is this available to the public?

Thanks!

Fulgour

Chosson

I'm with you on this one Shalott... Chosson?

Shalott

I'm tres interested because it says on the Camoin site that Phillip Camoin revealed that this is atually the earliest TdM manufactured in Marseille, and it may date from 1672? BUT - as always looking to fill in the gaps! (And buy one if poss!)

Fulgour

Thanks Kenji

kenji said:
Hello

Mr. Thierry Depaulis thinks Chosson's deck was made in 18th century.
The following are some excerpts from the e-mails he sent to me.

" From the archives we know Chosson was active in the mid-18th century. There were cardmakers in Marseilles as early as the 1630's. The date on the Chosson tarot (strangely housed in the Blumenstein Museum at Solothurn/Soleure, Switzerland) has been read as "1672" but this is impossible. The general style is that of the 18th century."

"According to Joseph Billioud, "La carte à jouer : une vieille industrie marseillaise", in 'Marseille. Revue municipale', 3rd s., No. 34, 1958,
and No. 35, 1958, the best and most recent study on cardmaking in Marseilles, François Chosson is mentioned in the archives in 1734
(also in D'Allemagne), 1736, 1753 and 1756. Chosson may have been working later on. Perhaps up to 1762."

(My question)
"Then what's the missing number, "1*72"...?
To see a photocopy of the two of coins (in Kaplan II),
it seems to me it is by no means 1'7'72."

His answer:
"I agree. There clearly is "1c72".
But this may be a woodcutter's error, just switching two figures, cutting (reversed in the woodblock) 1672 for 1762... (In all case this tarot has none of the features 17th-century French cards present.
On the contrary: it is quite comparable to all Marseilles mid-18th-century tarots.)"

Note: Originally posted by Kenji: 20-03-2004

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=22195

Shalott

Thanks Fulgour...can't wait to get home, I think it is Vol II of the Encyclopedia of Tarot I have...see what this # looks like...

Found some stuff here: http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Fragments/1540-1739.html

Fulgour

from:

Tarot et néo-pythagorisme
Alain Bougearel

Décrit dans La Régle du tarot à Jouer de 1637 probablement en usage dès 1585 ; l’Ancien Tarot italianisant dit de Paris (1600-1650), le Tarot de Marseille de Noblet (1650), le Tarot atypique de Viéville (circa 1650) et le Tarot de Marseille du maître cartier marseillais François Chosson (1672). La plus ancienne référence en France à une telle strcuture semble être le Tarot de Catelin Goeffroy de 1557.

http://www.officieldelavoyance.com/article.php3?id_article=736

(google translate) Described in Régle of the tarot To play of 1637 probably of use since 1585; Italianizing l'Ancian Tarot known as of Paris (1600-1650), the Tarot of Marseilles de Noblet (1650), the atypical Tarot of Viéville (circa 1650) and the Tarot of Marseilles of the Master Marseilles cartier François Chosson (1672). The oldest reference in France to such a structure seems to be the Tarot of Catelin Goeffroy of 1557.

Fulgour

Shalott said:
Found some stuff here: ...

"The deck by François Chosson, dated in Kaplan v.II to 1672,
is more likely from the second quarter of the eighteenth century."

*

c. 1734 "A complete 78-card deck by François Chosson appears to bear the date 1672, which would make it the earliest extant version of the most common modern TdM design. However, the earliest recorded Marseilles cardmaker by that name worked in the second quarter of the eighteenth century, and therefore the deck (although not necessarily the design) probably dates from that period. This design, referred to by Thierry Depaulis as “TdM II”, is the same as the 1718 Heri deck, as well as for the famous and influential 1760 Conver deck, which followed Chosson in exact detail. Modern TdM decks by Fournier and Grimaud reflect this design. (K II:310, 312; Depaulis p.c.)"

*

Maybe there should be a "Thanks Kenji" note here too!

Shalott

Fulgour said:
Maybe there should be a "Thanks Kenji" note here too!

Yup yup!

Fulgour

Chosson: an aside (for the record)

Chatunah

(kha-too-NAH) n. Jewish wedding. Chatan is the groom; Kalah is the bride; Edim are witnesses. The elements of a Jewish wedding normally include the following: one chosson (the groom), one kallah (the bride), and a ceremony sometimes referred to as kiddushin. Separate steps usually accompany a traditional wedding:

1. Shidduch - it's a match!
2. Vort - formal engagement
3. Ketubah - marriage contract
4. Bedekin - the visit from the chosson to the veiled bride
(after a week of no contact after the engagement)
5. Chuppah - the wedding canopy
6. Kiddushin - The giving of the ring
7. Sheva brachot - seven blessings recited over the couple
8. Breaking of the glass - remembering the exile even in our joy
9. Cheder yichud - "room of privacy" - the closed room
where bride and groom are together for the first time.
Normally they share a meal here, directly after the ceremony.
10. The reception - dancing, music, etc.

The Hebrew Glossary

Shalott

Ya kow, when I initially did a Google search for "Chosson," I saw stuff like this, thought, Hmm, and narrowed the search to "Chosson Tarot." Are you thinking "Chosson" is a psuedonym, and somehow relating to Judaism? Which could relate to jmd's recently posted theory about Le Pendu...maybe even the kabbalistic associations?