Tarot de Besançon

le pendu

Three more cards to consider...

The Hanged Man

The Heri and Benois (TdB) top row, The Dodal, Noblet and Conver (TdM) second row.

Similarities and Differences:
This is tricky.
Overall, I'd say the Heri is closer to the Noblet than to the Benois. The Heri has the "wings/hands" hanging from the shoulders of the Hanged Man, like the Noblet (and Dodal and several other TdM I decks).
The Heri and Noblet differ on the number and placement of the "stumps" on the "pillars".
All seem to imply "buttons" on the coat of the Hanged Man, Conver has the added detail of the "half moons/pockets".

It's interesting that the Benois is missing the "wings/hands", and shows two "plants" on the ground reaching up into the area. When looking at the Dodal, there are two plants "within" the grass mounds.

The Sun

The Heri and Benois (TdB) top row, The Sforza Castle, Dodal, Noblet and Conver (TdM) second row.

Similarities and Differences:
One piece of iconography that sometimes shows up in the TdB is the "addition" of the "two towers" attached to or beyond the wall... as shown in the Heri and the Benois. Why was this added? Or is it something that was lost in the TdM? It makes me think of the towers on the Moon.

Yet again.. the Heri seems more similar to the Noblet than anything else. Note the "skirt" on the figure on the right.

Also notice how "tall" the bricks are in the wall.. The Noblet and Heri seem to have taller bricks, and less of them than the other cards (about four rows).

The shape of the rays of the sun can be very telling. The Sforza Castle and Dodal agree that the rays are always straight, and both have an "outline" of the circle around the face. The others have alternating straight and curved lines. The Benois has the "droplets" pointing "in", while all of the others have them pointing "out".

The figure on the right seems more feminine in the Heri, Noblet and Sforza Castle. The Dodal is not clear at all. The Conver looks like two males. The Benois... well.. maybe two females???

The World

The Heri, Noblet, and Benois top row, The Sforza Castle, Vieville, Dodal, and Conver second row.

Similarities and Differences:
All of these images agree that the figure should be "caped" except for the Conver (and other TdM II images) which show the figure wearing a "scarf".

The Noblet and the Heri both have a "band" in the centers, bottom, and top of the wreath. The Vieville seems to show it as well. The Benois has "flowers" in the same positons. The Dodal and the Sforza Castle seem to not show these at all. The conver has crossing bands at the top and bottom.

The Noblet, Vieville, and Heri seem to show a "scepter" in the figure's hand, whereas on the others it seems more like a baton.

The Heri, Noblet, Sforza Castle, and Vieville show the animal's full bodies. The Dodal, Conver and Benois don't show this on the bottom of the card.

The Benois has "lost" the halos.

The Vieville and the Benois both show a sort of "tie/clasp" in the front of the figure.. possibly the tie/clasp for the cape.

Ross G Caldwell

Thanks for those observations with illustrations, Robert.

I'm inclined to agree with all of your observations, and have the same questions.

The TdB is clearly modeled upon TdMI, as scholars have long noted, with Noblet the most striking comparison.

In one case, the Emperor's throne-back, I think you are right to see the head of the eagle in Héri and Benois. Some TdMII's show more of a curve, that could have become a "beak" for some engravers. I think it is more likely never to have been part of the "pure" TdMI tradition (hence support for Noblet being the "correct reading"), and must therefore incorporate TdMII features; therefore, TdB can be dated no earlier than 1700, going by Depaulis et al.'s date for the appearance of TdMII.

We could speculate that the two types of decks were created at the same time, even. Remember that Depaulis speculated that the TdMII was a modernization of the TdMI, making some parts (World for instance) more "sexy" while others became less sexualized (figures in the Sun). Perhaps the World figure offended some with its likeness to Jesus; if so, remember that the same kind of religious sensibilites probably lay behind the changes of Popess and Pope into Juno and Jupiter. Juno and Jupiter are also much more sexy than Popess and Pope (Juno is showing a good amount of leg, and Jupiter is pretty buff).

It might not be a coincidence that the changes were made in 1725 in Bologna, and the Belgian Tarot appeared around this time. We might consider the early 18th century one of the great turning points or watersheds in Tarot history, when a significant part of the tradition becomes obscured.

This is looking pretty good for Noblet (overall) as the clearest representative of the oldest TdMI tradition.

I don't know if we should then call the Cary Sheet the "proto-TdM". Maybe it is like the relationship of the Coptic Gospel of Thomas to the "canonical" sayings source "Q".

The use of TdB for reconstructing the older tradition would depend first on isolating all clear TdMII borrowings, and seeing how they differ from Noblet and the Sforza Castle cards.

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
It might not be a coincidence that the changes were made in 1725 in Bologna, and the Belgian Tarot appeared around this time.

The connection being possibly the War of the Spanish Succession, in which the Spanish Netherlands [which incorporates the region in which the Belgian Tarot appears] becomes the Austrian Netherlands.

The name of the Spanish Captain, Fracasse, means:

Fracassé: m. ée: f. Broken, crashed; extreamly crushed; wracked; battered; ruined, made hauocke of.

The War of Spanish Succession also resulted of course in the Austrian takeover of the former French dominions in Italy:

"In the opening shots of that war, Eugene defeated French armies in northern Italy. As the area of French offensive action moved north, and as the war spread to include other nations such as England, Eugene joined forces for the first time with his English counterpart, the Duke of Marlborough. Together they defeated the French in Bavaria at the Battle of Blenheim (1704). For the next three years he was engaged in fighting in northern Italy and Provence, were he suffered defeats in Cassano, but finally he defeated French armies in the decisive battle of Turin (1706), after which Louis XIV had to withdraw all French forces from Italy. Eugene attacked French Toulon on 1707, but siege was unsuccessful.
Eugene then moved north to Flanders, where he joined up with Marlborough to win the battles of Oudenarde and Malplaquet. Unfortunately, the follow-up invasion of France that would have ended the war was blunted by the marginal victory of Malplaquet, and the retirement of Britain from the war. After one more year of fighting, Austria signed a favourable peace with France, in 1714.

One of the new Austrian possessions after the War of the Spanish Succesion was the former Spanish, now Austrian Netherlands. Eugene was made governor of this area, then later became vicar of the Austrian lands in Italy."

Quote from article on Prince Eugene of Savoy in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Eugene_of_Savoy

Kwaw
dictionary ref: Randle Cotgrave, A Dictionary of the French and English Tongues (1611)

kwaw

Fulgour said:
And to me, Bacchus and the Spanish Captain are exceptionally
out-of-the-loop,

In the Belgian deck Bacchus is commonly spelt 'bacus' or 'bacvs', a word that also meant a dicing table:

quote:

"The Ginny hen floure is called of Dodonas, Flos Meleagris: of Lobelius, Lilio-narcissus variegata, for that it hath the floure of a Frittio Lilly, and the root of
Narcissus: it hath Checquered Daffodill beene called Fritillaria, of the table or boord upon which men play at Chesse, which square checkers the floure doth very much resemble; some thinking that it was named Fritillus: whereof there is no certainty; for Martial seemeth to call Fritillus, bacus, or the Tables whereon men play at Dice, in the fifth booke of his Epigrams, writing to Galla.

The sad Boy now his nuts cast by,
Is call'd to Schoole by Masters cry:
And the drunke Dicer now betray'd
By flattering Tables as he play'd,
Is from his secret tipling house drawne out,
Although the Officer he much besought,

In English we may call it Turky-hen or Ginny-hen Floure, and also Checquered Daffodill, and Fritillarie, according to the Latine."

end quote from:
Thomas Johnson, The Herbal or General History of Plants (1633)

Kwaw

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Kwaw,

kwaw said:
The connection being possibly the War of the Spanish Succession, in which the Spanish Netherlands [which incorporates the region in which the Belgian Tarot appears] becomes the Austrian Netherlands.

The name of the Spanish Captain, Fracasse, means:

Fracassé: m. ée: f. Broken, crashed; extreamly crushed; wracked; battered; ruined, made hauocke of.

The War of Spanish Succession also resulted of course in the Austrian takeover of the former French dominions in Italy:

You're probably on to something here. According to Dummett (the younger - Dummett's son Andrew (I believe)) in 1974 the Capitaine Fracasse image derives from an engraving from c. 1635 made by Michel Lasne -
http://expositions.bnf.fr/bosse/grand/104.htm

Depaulis reproduced this image in 1984. By 1993 Depaulis had done a fair bit of research about it, and informed Dummett so that the latter could report in 1993 that a book printed in Bologna in 1719 made reference to the image, and said that it had been made at a time of "great anger between France and Spain".

I'll get more later - but maybe this should be another thread - the long simmering "Belgian Tarot"?

le pendu

Hi Kwaw and Ross,

I think a new thread for the Belgian is a great idea. I'd love to learn about it.

Ross G Caldwell

le pendu said:
Hi Kwaw and Ross,

I think a new thread for the Belgian is a great idea. I'd love to learn about it.

Okay, go ahead and start it. I have to go for a few hours, but I'll be back.

Both of these traditions deserve a lot more study, not only for the possible remnants of the early TdM tradition they might preserve, but for their own sake as well.

kwaw

Ross G Caldwell said:
Okay, go ahead and start it. I have to go for a few hours, but I'll be back.

Both of these traditions deserve a lot more study, not only for the possible remnants of the early TdM tradition they might preserve, but for their own sake as well.

Started a thread here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69458

Kwaw

kwaw

Besancon Jupiter, Belgian Bacus

"But the acts of this god (Bacchus) are much entangled and confounded with those of Jupiter…

"… the confusion between the persons of Jupiter and Bacchus will justly admit of an allegory, because noble and meritorious actions may sometimes proceed from virtue, sound reason, and magnanimity, and sometimes again from a concealed passion and secret desire of ill, however they may be extolled and praised, insomuch that it is not easy to distinguish betwixt the acts of Bacchus and the acts of Jupiter."

Francis Bacon Wisdom of the Ancients (1609)