study group ~ *s c o r p i o*

meatbox666> thanks for the pointer. Makes sense to me. As for the metals, pls keep this in mind b/c I'm going to return to this when we begin to look at alchemy. Mars isn't that big of a player, but when we hit Mercury and Saturn watch out!

Minderwiz, yes, I liked his breakdown of the houses. But I find Arroyo's book really marginalizes Pluto, Neptune and Uranus: his claim is that they are impersonal and not as important as the "older" planets when interpreting a chart so what he does write is quite cursory. At least "Chart Interpretation".

8th house deals w/ anything that falls under the realm of death, sex, resources, occult, psychology and the hidden/buried.

Pluto destroys and transforms. Keep in mind what Pluto is connected to: Judgment, Plutonium (used in Hiroshima's A-bomb), and Hades of the underworld.

So the connection w/8th leads us into areas of power/control, death/rebirth. The glyph of Pluto has the circle of spirit floating above the semi-circle of of consciousness/emotion, resting upon the cross of matter. So we also have the idea of transcendence.
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$: as opposed to the 2nd house which talks about personal wealth, 8th house deals w/control so it covers insurance, wills/inheritance, resources from marriage. From my own mind (so someone check me if I'm off the mark here), I'd link this to tax, perhaps pre-nup agreements, heirlooms.

sex: porn, BDSM (talk about control ^_~), sex trade work (hey, sex *and* resources!). My own conjectures: rape, abortion, venereal disease, menstruation, more mystical approaches to sex (ie Tantra), orgies. Also, b/c sex is a marginalized topic in our society, it is also "hidden", so I think the study of sex would fall under this area as well. There are also occult links to sex, but I'm not very knowledgable in that area.

death: funerals, taxidermy, autopsies, morticians, cemetaries, suicide. My own associations: martyrdom (death/ressurection, mysticism), Halloween/Samhain (will take this up later), ghosts

psychology: This isn't often covered, so from my experience I'm thinking... Freudian/Jungian analysis, dreams, neurology. Throw in control and security and you arrive at Pavlov and the behavioural-cognitive school. Mind control experiments and all the very unethical stuff that went down during the early days of psychiatry. Psychological meds might fall under here too. Forms of paranoid schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder (literally all-or-nothing)?

hidden/buried: psychoanalysis definetely falls under this category (the first occupation I was interested in was archaeology/paleontology - little did I know I'd spend the rest of my life digging inside my head ), but also on a more literal level, mining, detective work or any investigative work perhaps forensic work, espionage, organized crime (or is that more of a 12th house thing?)

occult: tarot! astrology! alchemy! Yeah! The 8th house *rules* ^_~

other areas I think might be applicable: mass graves, geology, war (power/control/death), demolition sites, garbage/recycling plants, sewage, intestine/bladder, churches, cults, despots, guerilla/revolutionaries, harems, Masonry, groups that deal w/resources (ie. IMF, biotech companies (patents, intellectual property etc)), chemical engineering
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Mars is still up for grabs as is the co-rulership of Mars and Pluto. If you're interested in covering these topics, pls post!

And its XXXXX rated!

Thanks Isthmus, I'll try and put some slants on certain things and see what people think.

We did an eighth house thread not so long ago

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7555&highlight=Eighth+House

However I can repeat some of the essentials. The First six Houses deal with 'Me' - who I am, My things, my brothers and sisters, my home, how I enjoy myself, my work. The second six deal with how I relate to others - Me and my partners, me and other peoples things, my beliefs and philosopies, me and society, me and my friends, how I relate to the universe.

So the reason why the eighth is other people's property is that it is the opposite house (six houses on) from the second - which is my property. Now other people's property can come to me - through marriage, through inheritance - my property can go to other people - through taxes, through me making a will. You could also see insurance and loans as fitting into the eighth on the basis that they involve other people's money. So that is the link with what seems like an odd collection of property items.

Planets in the eighth House make no major aspect to the Ascendant (at least in principle) so the eight house was considered a weak and rather unfortunate placement - like the twelfth and sixth. Certainly the link with death has been there for a very long time - since classical times (and remember they did not know of the existence of Pluto). Death murder, poisoning, poverty, fear and anguish were eighth house matters.

Modern astrologers have tweaked things a little. On a psychological level we now have shared feelings put into the eighth (and one way to share feelings is through sex). Also modern astrologers put big business in here (so for Greens who believe big business is poisoning the planet this will be an apt placement!) Also crime is put in here (I suppose because it involves my property passing to others).

The link with the Occult is most likely taken from Pluto's hidden nature (you can't see it) and the depth of intensity of Scorpio. Religion in general is a ninth house (Jupiter) type matter.

Astrology is actually associated with Uranus so it is usually assigned to the eleventh House.

I would be very careful of the links with the 'darker' side of sex - BDSM, etc. Where sex is involved with some degree of violence or domination - even if playacting I would expect Mars to be involved directly. Now the Classic links for this would be Mars/Pluto and/or Mars/Saturn. Whilst the first combination are the Scorpio rulers, I don't follow the Pluto/Mars = Eighth = Scorpio fashion so I certainly would not interpret any one with planets in the eighth as having violent sexual tendencies - which will be a big relief to some of you. Even with Mars/Pluto links I would be looking for squares and oppositions and a lot more evidence from elsewhere in the chart. Never jump to conclusions.

Well so much for the eighth - Please ask any questions that may occur to you. I will post again on Pluto specifically, so if anyone has questions about Pluto or the the Pluto/Mars rulership issue, I'll try and answer them.

Best wishes

Minderwiz

Thanks for grounding my post Minderwiz! If I could add one more little thing, it would be "elimination".

Further thoughts:
- I think the poisoning link is interesting b/c then you get into chemistry and alchemy.
- Also, how short sighted of me to forget to mention the *major* link b/w Freud, psya and sex!! If ppl want me to elabourate here, just shoot.
- Yes, big business and resources; we're talking the privatization of water and energy sources, the patenting of organic substances, again, any biotech (perhaps the technology itself is more a Uranus thing, but the business side would fall under here). Also, if you're going to include control and *human* resources, then h/r and business fall under here, maybe also the exploitation of cheap labour in developing countries.
- Oh darn, no astrology in 8th!
- Right, religion is a 9th house thing, but perhaps cults might fit under 8th. (control, dominance etc)
- perhaps HIV/AIDS would fall under this category.

Finally, as to BDSM, I hope I didn't scare anyone off there. You're no more likely to be involved w/BDSM w/8th house placements then you are to say, wander around in sewage compounds, talk to spirits and join a Masonic order!

Alright! Looking fwd to your reply, Minderwiz!

Seing I've a Stellium (three planets) and a Cuspal Sun in Scorpio, I decided I'd change my Avatar for this month

Well, doing at little additional reading at least one astrologer puts sadism, and psychoanalysis in the eighth (Tony Louis) but then he's a psychiatrist in his spare time - but clearly the matter is debatable - I'd still want some Mars/Pluto interaction.

Intrestingly he also extends 'death' to include all industries that are death related - such as morticians, coroners, surgeons and butchers. And as the eighth is about death and rebirth - he includes good Pluto stuff like waste disposal and sanitation.

I fully agree with your latter points about BDSM - however 'control' is more a Saturnian tendency so I would expect Saturn to either be in the eighth or have some aspect to planets in the eighth if we are looking at control.

The eighth is a 'Water' or 'Soul' House (Scorpio being a Water element) so it is feelings and emotions that are important. Also Pluto and Mars are Intensity and Action - not really the restraint necessary for a 'control' freak - unless there's a Saturn aspect.

Perhaps we could begin to look at the Rulers Mars and Pluto.

The ancient Astrologers came up with a system of planets ruling Signs. The Sun ruled Leo - when Summer was at its hottest in the Northern Hemisphere. The Moon ruled Cancer - beginning on the Pagan festival of mid-Summer's day. The other, then known planets were given two signs each, one ruled by day and the other by night.

Thus Mercury ruled Gemini by day and Virgo by night and is said to be in dignity in these signs.

Venus ruled (is in dignity) Libra by day and Taurus by night

Mars ruled Aries by day and Scorpio by night.

Jupiter ruled Sagittarius by day and Pisces by night and

Saturn ruled Aquarius by day and Capricorn by night.

The planets have other essential dignities but more of that elsewhere.

Now when Uranus was discovered (1781) followed by Neptune (1846) and Pluto (1930) - Astrologers began to look at assigning sign rulerships to them. As you know Uranus was assigned Aquarius, Neptune was assigned Pisces and Pluto was assigned Scorpio.

There are still traditional astrologers who argue that it undermines the whole system of sign rulerships to have the outer planets as rulers because the day/night system no longer holds. A substantial majority of Astrologers however go along with the new rulerships on the grounds of affinity - the planetary energies fit the signs. In the case of Pluto there is still some remaining aarguments, firstly because of its relatively recent discovery - so we don't know as much about it as the rest. A small minority have argued that Pluto should have been given Aries, leaving Mars with Scorpio. All the arguments you will find for Uranus, Neptune and Pluto as rulers rests on them having a strong affinity for the signs.

At a more esoteric level it has been argued that the outer planets operate on a different level to the visible planets. Uranus rules the Plane of Matter, Neptune rules the Plane of the Mind and Pluto rules the Plane of Life. As ruler of the plane of Life - Pluto has dominion over Mars and Venus - Aries, Scorpio, Libra and Taurus. This of course is not widely accepted and I have seen alternative views that Pluto is the 'higher octave' of Mars, Neptune being the 'higher octave' of Venus and Uranus being the 'higher octave' of Mercury.

In effect Uranus was true to its nature because it provided a sudden upset to a system that had lasted for millenia and we (collectively) are still not absolutely sure about ruerships any longer.

Minderwiz

Thanks for another informative post, Minderwiz and for clarifying some of the finer points....

Maybe I've read too much Foucault, but the instant you say: power, I say: control! But yes, control is much more a Saturn thing. (I'd still say Power still rests w/Pluto.) The Pluto book I've been reading seems to stress this control or rather abuse of control aspect so I think I'm going to have a look at other sources so my knowledge doesn't get too skewed. Plus I *do* have Saturn (along w/Jupiter and Pluto! Woo hoo!) in my 8th so maybe I'm inclined towards thinking that way.

OK, I don't have time to get into it here, but now that we're moving onto the planets, I can start w/the mythological tangent. I'll have this info on by next week.

Also, I'm sure some of you guys reading this thread have questions or additonal thoughts - feel free to post away!

oh dear

wow, you guys sure are knowledgeable. i appreciate that you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into this study group.....

i'm having a problem here. i am sitting with my 'astrodient' chart in front of me...almost in tears... trying to figure out what you are talking about. i'm looking at mars in my 8th, wondering what it takes for a planet to have an 'aspect' to it? can someone please do a thread on the basics. what are these blue and red lines? and how do i know which are squares and oppositions? please speak to me simply. i have tried to go to other sites to learn, but know not where to start. there is so much out there i cannot see the trees for the forest. would someone please teach me the basics.... i really want to learn! *sniff*

zorya, thank you! I've been trying to follow this group and it's already waaayyyy over my head. There are posts I have to read 4 or 5 times to get the slightest idea what they're even about, even less understand them.

Please, please speak as if you were trying to teach a 2 year old here. That's about the level I'm at, and am truly trying to learn.

sorry for the confusion!

Woah! I guess I had a very different conception of 'beginner' OK, *thanks* for speaking up. I'll start another thread going over the basic principals of astrology; elements, houses, aspects etc etc. I wasn't planning on covering transits or aspects in depth in this group, but we can at least look at how transits/aspects work in astrology. For now, check out the "Astrology Lessons" at this page: http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com It's geared towards beginners and should give you a good start. Libraries should also have beginner books to help you out.

OK, just to make this clear, this won't be a chart interpretation study group although the knowledge you gain here should give you the basic blocks you need to build an interpretation. (After all, trying to interpret a chart w/o knowing this basics is kinda like putting the cart before the horse!)

Thanks for the posts Zorya and Cricket

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee do ask if stuff is too highly pirtched so we can go back to Earth.

Just to help on some of your queries

Firstly

Aspects are simply angles between planets. On a chart a line is drawn between the two planets linking them together. The traditional major aspects are:

Conjunction - both planets at the same degree.

Opposition - both planets 180 degrees apart - they usually hav e symbol like '0-0' or the infinity sign marked on the line in a chart.

Trine - both planets separated by 120 degrees - thre is usually a triangle symbol on the line in a chart

Square - both planets separated by 90 degrees they usually have a 'square ' symbol marked on the line

Sextile - both planets separted by 45 degrees- they usually have a symbol rather like a large * marked on the line.

Trines and Sextiles are usually taken as 'easy' aspects - energies flow easily between the planets and you can easily blend the planets energies. They are usually shown in Blue on colour charts

Opposiitions and Squares are taken as 'hard' aspects and have conflicting eneregies - you have to work to use them. They are usually shown as Red on a colour chart.

Conjunctions are either easy or hard depending on the Planets - Venus/Jupiter/Mercury/Sun/Moon are easy Mars/Saturn/Pluto/Uranus are hard.

There are four Elements

Fire - Aries, Leo, Sagittarius - these are 'action' signs rather like Wands in Tarot

Earth - Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn - there are 'Practical' signs - rather like Pentacles or Disks in Tarot

Air - Gemini, Libra, Aquarius - these are 'ideas and relationships' signs a bit like Swords in Tarot but not necessarily with the worries

Water - Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces - these are 'feelings and emotions' signs rather like Cups in Tarot.

With three signs in each group they are sometimes referred to as the Triplicities.

Can I suggest that we fill the next few posts with Zorya and Cricket asking questions - bits that they want to cover or explanations they want. If they are having probs so are others. Thinks like how do I read my chart or what do these funny symblos mean or indeed,

Please ask - We can't see your faces so we can't read when you're getting lost -

An eager to help

Minderwiz