Piatnik TdM [Tarot de Marseille]

le pendu

I just received the Paitnik TdM. It says on the box that it is a historical deck from the 1700s. Checking the cards, the two of cups says "Tarot Fin Fait Par Ignaz Krebs de Fribourg en Brisgau."

According to Kaplan II, page 214: Ignaz Krebs, Freiburg Im Breisgau, 18th century.

Some of the cards are very rough, but some have interesting details on them as well, especially ornamentation.

I thought I would mention it to anyone who is interested in the historical decks.

best,
robert

Cerulean

I saw it on R. Somerville and wondered about it.

I'm curious to find if you feel it's an undiscovered treasure...

I haven't seen much discussion about it yet.

Regards,

Cerulean

le pendu

well, it's a treasure for me!

As far as the historical TdMs (and relatives) go, I'm lucky enough to have the Heron Jacques Vieville, Dusserre Jean Dodal, Camoin Nicolas Conver Bicentenial, Heron Nicolas Conver, Lo Scarabeo Nicolas Conver, Il Meneghello Soprafino, Heron Notstradamus (poor version of the Jean Payen), and Carte Mundi Vandenborre.

But if we are stictly talking about TdMs, then I have only Jean Dodal and Nicolas Conver with which to compare iconography, so this is a lovely addition.

On one hand, the deck is very rough, and many lines seems to be missing. On the other, there are little details here and there that I find interesting.

The wall on the Sun card has extra area on the left and right, and I've seen older decks that indicate that there may have once been towers on some cards in that place.

The Moon has no drops, but has clouds.

The figure on the right of the Tower looks like it might have been possible that he has legs bent over backwards, and is falling like the other figure rather than crawling out from behind the tower.

The man in the Lovers has his right hand not on his belt, but on the woman beside him, so he is actually touching both women.

The Hermit is very different than usual, looking more like the Hermit in the Heri deck on page 318 of Kaplan II, or the Schaer deck on page 338.

The Wheel is interesting too in that the figure on top of the Wheel is 'squatting", like it is sitting on the wheel, with legs wide open pointing in both directions. I've seen this before, but can't remember where. In fact, the whole orientation of the wheel is different than ususal... hard to explain... but it is almost like the wheel itself has been reversed, but the characters haven't.

There are probably many more, these are just some I noticed while writing this.

The deck is just plain interesting to me, but then, I like to sit and compare details on the cards, not something that everyone enjoys.

I'm very glad I picked it up, for for many, I think the cuts will seem too rough, and for some, the details might even disqualify it from being a "True TdM". For me, it's a lovely addition to my TdM collection and I'm thrilled to have another reference for exploring the iconography.

best,
robert

Moonbow

It's great to feel you enthusiasm for this deck.

I hope to get it one day, it's on my list, but for now it's one deck at a time for me... and I've just got the Vieville. (infact I have two - long story!)

Facinating that you have picked up so much, just while writing this post though. I realised that it was quite a rough looking deck and also with limited colours, but I personally like that in a deck.

Fulgour

le pendu said:
I just received the Paitnik TdM. It says on the box that it is a historical deck from the 1700s. Checking the cards, the two of cups says "Tarot Fin Fait Par Ignaz Krebs de Fribourg en Brisgau." According to Kaplan II, page 214: Ignaz Krebs, Freiburg Im Breisgau, 18th century.

The "deck" is from the 1700s style-wise

y'know?

Unique Editions:
Jean Dodal 1701, Dusserre
Besançon 18th Century, Meneghello
Ignaz Krebs 18th C., Piatnik 1984
Bolognais 1780, Lo Scarabeo
Gumppenberg 1840, Meneghello
Liguria-Piedmont 1860, Lo Scarabeo

Conver & Co:
Nicolas Conver 1760, Camoin 1960
Nicolas Conver 1760, Grimaud 1970
Nicolas Conver 1760, Héron
Nicolas Conver 1760, Lo Scarabeo 2000
Nicolas Conver 1760, Thunder Bay 2003

Modern Recreations:
Grimaud 1930, Paul Marteau
Fournier 1992, Marixtu de Guler
Carta Mundi 1996, Alan Smithee
Véritable 1996, Kris Hadar
Convos 1999, Otto Spalinger
Camoin 2002, Camoin-Jodorowsky
Marsella 2004, Rodes and Sanchez

le pendu

Hi Fulgour,

Not sure what you are saying?? Yes, I know it is from the 1700s. It *could* be as old or older than the Dodal or Conver, (but I doubt it).

Thanks for your list. I like that you included the Bolognais 1780, Lo Scarabeo and Liguria-Piedmont 1860, Lo Scarabeo in the list, as I too consider them important for research and contemplation.

I have the Besançon by Il Meneghello on order, and can't wait for it to arrive.

The only other deck in your list that I think I am missing is the Gumppenberg 1840, Meneghello. I should try to get ahold of one.

To your list I would add:

Historic:
the Tarot of Paris

Modern:
Jean Noblet 22 trumps by Jean-Claude Fornoy
Jean Dodal 22 trumps by Jean-Claude Fornoy
the Classico Tarocco Di Marsiglia by Il Meneghello
Tarot de la Felicite by Pierrick Pinot

I wish I had the Felicite, but it seems to be very rare now.

Also, following the link that Cerulean mentioned (which lead me to http://www.playingcardsales.co.uk/cards/ ), and clicking on Tarot and then on Marseille Tarots brings up two decks France Cartes:

Ancien Tarot de Marseille by France Cartes, Cat Ref: 13679
and
Tarot of Marseilles (FC) Cat Ref: 11060

I *think* I have the Ancien, which has Grimaud listed on it with a copyright of 1963 on the cards... but maybe I'm wrong? Does anyone know the difference between these two decks?

thanks,
robert

le pendu

Moonbow* said:
It's great to feel you enthusiasm for this deck.

I hope to get it one day, it's on my list, but for now it's one deck at a time for me... and I've just got the Vieville. (infact I have two - long story!)

Facinating that you have picked up so much, just while writing this post though. I realised that it was quite a rough looking deck and also with limited colours, but I personally like that in a deck.

Moonbow*,

I DO love these decks.

And isn't the Vieville simply amazing? And full of interesting details!

One huge advantage of the Vieville is that it is lacking the titles and numbers areas, and I think you can get a peek at what might have been above and below on early TdM cards.

For instance... many of the decks that aren't "conver-style" have what looks like loops hanging from the front of the chariot. You can see what I mean by looking at the Dodal and Noblet here:

http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Noblet/pages/pages-images/lechariot.html

http://tarot-history.com/Jean-Dodal/pages/pages-images/07.html

The Paitnik has this too.

Now look at the Chariot from the Vieville:
http://www.tarothistory.com/images/vieville_chariot.jpg

Here we can see much more clearly that the other decks seem to have cut off the top section, causing it the canopy to look like loops.. almost flag or banner like. But on the Vieville, we can see that *perhaps* the top was originally a wavy material.

Also, look at Strength.. this is interesting because we can actually see the top of her hat, and looking below, we can see the tail of the lion wrapping at her feet.

The Pope has a top to the two columns. Similar in a way to the Noblet.

Noblet Strength:
http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Noblet/pages/pages-images/force.html

Noblet Pope:
http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Noblet/pages/pages-images/le-pape.html

Vieville Strength and Pope:
http://www.tarothistory.com/images/vieville_strength_pope.jpg

Of course, the non-TdM cards are fascinating to look at, and if you look at the Vandenborre Bacchus tarot style, you can see the relationship. I love the astronomer on the Star, as shown here:
http://www.tarot-history.com/Jacques-Vieville/pages/page-2.html

I think the Vieville is absolutely a gorgeous deck, I hope you enjoy it.

best,
robert

Moonbow

Oh my, you have such an eye for detail. Thank you.

I will have to get my decks out in a bit of space, to compare them tomorrow (it's late here). Flornoy's Noblet Majors are definately on my list too.. one day.

Thanks for all the links and scans too, and I'm sorry to hi-jack your thread.

le pendu

Moonbow* said:
Oh my, you have such an eye for detail. Thank you.

I will have to get my decks out in a bit of space, to compare them tomorrow (it's late here). Flornoy's Noblet Majors are definately on my list too.. one day.

Thanks for all the links and scans too, and I'm sorry to hi-jack your thread.

hee hee... seems that *I'm* hi-jacking my own post anyways.. I'm glad you're participating! Do get the Flornoy Noblets (and Dodals too when you can!), they are really wonderful cards to have.

Speaking as we were about the Ancient Tarots of Bologna by Giacomo Zoni, 1780, published by Lo Scarabeo, I noticed that the Wheel in that deck is VERY similiar to the one in the Piatnik by Ignaz Krebes! (See.. now I'm getting myself back on topic)

I've scanned the Wheel of Fortune from both decks.
http://tarothistory.com/images/wheel_krebs_zoni.jpg

This is interesting because they both have the same "reversed" Wheel, but with the characters in the "proper" position. But if you look at the Krebs on the right, you can see that the character on the left is there, with his "skirt", and tail. And you can see the disconnected handle of the Wheel. Now looking at the Zoni or the left, he seems to have turned the "skirt" into part of the structure of the Wheel itself! The tail now looks like flames or something. Also, you can see how the squatting figure on top thas turned into a standing figure. Both have the tail coming out to the left. I know I've seen the Wheel with the "flame" on the left before, I'll have to check.

Also, regarding the Moon.These two decks share this in common as well, but more interesting is that they share the "face" of the moon. I've never paid this much attention before. I've realized that the "Conver-style" decks have the moon face in profile, and that the other decks have the moon looking directly full face (like the Noblet and the Dodal), but now see that this is another style, and... it can be traced all the way back to the Cary-Sheet.. circa 1500!

Check out this page on the Tarot Hermit site:
http://www.tarothermit.com/marseilles.htm

The Krebs:
http://tarothistory.com/images/zoni_moon.jpg

Here we see that the Benois (Besancon), Zoni, Krebs and Cary Sheet all have the full face, with cresent at the bottom of the face.

All have the clouds but the Cary Sheet, which has no drops either.

The Dodal has both full face and crescent, but it has drops rather than clouds:
http://tarot-history.com/Jean-Dodal/pages/pages-images/18.html

Sorry if this sounds silly, but it is the stuff that I find so fascinating, and while I've noticed the full face, I never really noticed the cresent at the bottom before, so it is a new discovery to me.

best,
robert

Cerulean

Le Pendu, what about Le Pendu?

I always am curious if my favorite "Swiss-Marseilles" profile Le Pendu is going to show up. Please excuse the horrid pun, but the in-profile variation might be one of the trademarks of this being a "Swiss-miss" from how some prefer their time-honored TdM patterns...

Thanks for the information.

Cerulean