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Ross G Caldwell  Ross G Caldwell is offline
Join Date: 07 Jul 2003
Location: Béziers, France
Posts: 2,649
Ross G Caldwell 

Originally posted by Diana
Translation of Kris Hadar's reply (original in above post)

1701, 19 October. Reimposition of the taxes, fixed at eighteen deniers. The old moulds must be destroyed. The cardmakers lose the right to carve their moulds.

As a point of departure, for my restoration, I started out from the principle that if the Master cardmakers had to destroy the old ones to make new ones, they must necessarily have been inspired by the old ones. Consequently, by studying the new tarots, one should find the traces of the old ones.

The oldest, starting from 1700, is the Jean Dodal, Master Cardmaker in Lyon, followed by Jean-Pierre Payen in 1713, Master Cardmaker in Avignon, and the inescapable Nicolas Conver of 1760, which must be said, was the one responsible for the famous appellation: Tarot of Marseille.

One needn’t do much research to discover that Nicolas Conver copied Jean-Pierre Payen. All one needs to do is to look at the Cavalier d’Epée of the Conver and the Payen to see on the horse’s croup the same flowery design. Conver completely redrew the tarot of Marseille and added his own symbols, in which, even if some people do see occult knowledge, have nothing to do with tradition inherited by the Jean Dodal.

Therefore, I studied the Tarot of Jean Dodal in detail ...
I appreciate Kris' work - it is a labor of love which has resulted in a masterpiece - although I do not agree with his overall thesis. His use of Payen and Dodal is good methodology.

I have never read of the edict to destroy all the old moulds - I assume it is in d'Allemagne vol. II.

Two points only to clarify -

1. Avignon did not become part of France until 1791; until then, it was a Papal dominion. According to Chobaut, who studied the Avignon cardmakers most deeply ("Les Maîtres-Cartiers d'Avignon du XVe Siècle à la Révolution" 1955) No Parisian or Royal Edict concerning cards was promulgated there until 1756 (no legislation concerning cardmakers whatsoever in fact) when the King forced the Pope to allow the same tariffs on cards from Avignon as in France. Avignon was effectively dominating the market with much cheaper cards, to the detriment of Marseilles.

Therefore the Payen family, who were cardmakers in Avignon from 1686 until after the Revolution (the first Payen had been a card-maker in Marseille until 1686), could easily have preserved an *unbroken* tradition, and Payen's 1713 deck from Avignon therefore does not represent a recreation after the destruction of 1701. In Avignon, there was no destruction.

2. Dodal's deck could be dated anywhere from 1701 to 1715. There is no date on the pack. 1701-1715 are simply the dates when Dodal was active in Lyon. Therefore, Payen's could be earlier than Dodal's, strictly technically speaking.

And if Dodal had to recarve his plates, then Payen's is certainly to be preferred.

It is a pity there is no real facsimile of Payen's deck...
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