gregory
Ah yes - the one in IssyBertrand said:
I didn't know they had a website.... Must look ! I love the place. (I just googled the title as you gave it and trionfi came up !)ETA OOH ! So it does ! Thanks !
Marteau, Grimaud, confusion?!!
I didn't know they had a website.... Must look ! I love the place. (I just googled the title as you gave it and trionfi came up !)ETA OOH ! So it does ! Thanks !
Bertrand
Hello,
First point : I said I can't swear that Marteau did hold the pen, that's all I said because I simply dont' know ! But for sure Marteau was the one behind the drawings anyway, and possibly did he drew them as I'm not aware of anyone else who took credits for these drawings.
Second point : we know at 90% sure that the base for Marteau's deck lines was the tarot italien published then by Grimaud, and we know that its colors were probably strongly inspired by the late Camoin edition with the limited colors, the one that dates back to 1880 with "dominant blue, red and yellow" (I quote here Tarotpedia)
Here you can note that tarotpedia states that Marteau's was based on Conver, which is also true as the color scheme was highly inspired by the 1880 edition, and the typically Besançon cards were replaced by Marseille cards following Conver's model, so even if Marteau's is based on a tarot de Besançon called italian tarot, he was also based on Conver's (maybe on both older and more recent editions of the Conver), and even then Arnoult signed decks were extremely probably based themselves on Conver's decks in the first place.
Bertrand
seems I didn't made myself clear !Premdas said:
First point : I said I can't swear that Marteau did hold the pen, that's all I said because I simply dont' know ! But for sure Marteau was the one behind the drawings anyway, and possibly did he drew them as I'm not aware of anyone else who took credits for these drawings.
Second point : we know at 90% sure that the base for Marteau's deck lines was the tarot italien published then by Grimaud, and we know that its colors were probably strongly inspired by the late Camoin edition with the limited colors, the one that dates back to 1880 with "dominant blue, red and yellow" (I quote here Tarotpedia)
I don't believe they did any mistake, the design is attributed to BP Grimaud as publisher name of the deck and lacking other sure author name, that seems to be the most logical answer ; in case of doubt, one can check the dates, they will confirm that BP Grimaud (the man) couldn't have created this deck since he was long time dead at the time. Moreover I believe the text in Tarotpedia is deinitely not ambiguous regarding this issue since it states clearly : "Paul Marteau (...) redrew the deck based on (...) Conver Tarot de Marseille."
Here you can note that tarotpedia states that Marteau's was based on Conver, which is also true as the color scheme was highly inspired by the 1880 edition, and the typically Besançon cards were replaced by Marseille cards following Conver's model, so even if Marteau's is based on a tarot de Besançon called italian tarot, he was also based on Conver's (maybe on both older and more recent editions of the Conver), and even then Arnoult signed decks were extremely probably based themselves on Conver's decks in the first place.
Bertrand
Bertrand
To clarify any remaining confusion, the following thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491
can be considered as an ultimate reference regarding Marteau's decks thanks to Coredil's awesome work, so when in doubt, don't forget to check there in the first place !
Bertrand
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491
can be considered as an ultimate reference regarding Marteau's decks thanks to Coredil's awesome work, so when in doubt, don't forget to check there in the first place !
Bertrand
Premdas
Bertrand said:
OK Bertrand thank U. Well, I found it's not clear to says that Paul Grimaud redrew the deck (this is a clear affirmation, not conditional) then that BP Grimaud is the artist... If it(s not an error well, it's a little bit confusing.
Thank you for your clear answer; I knew the Grimaud was probably drown by Marteau but then I doubted reading Taropedia...
coredil
@ Bertrand
You gave some nice explanations in this thread
Here are some maybe usefull further informations about the house Grimaud.
These informations are all taken (freely translated and shortened - sorry I am too lazy to translate the whole text) from:
Il était une fois:
B.P. GRIMAUD
Maitre cartier
Un siècle de fabrication de cartes à jouer
This is the number 10/98 of the revue As de Trèfle and I think it was the catalog for the exhibition of 1998 "B.P. Grimaud Maitre Cartier" organised by the Musée d'Issy les Moulineaux by Paris
********************
. Baptiste Paul Grimaud came to Paris at the beginning of the years 1840 (he is 23 years old)
. on the 12 June 1851 he creates la société Grimaud & Cie with two fellows.
. in 1858 he signs a contract with Firmin Chappellier who invented a way to produce cards with round metallised corner.
. As the atelier on Rue de Bondy being too small, Grimaud removes to Rue de Lancry in 1865. The following year he takes apartnership with Charles Chartier.
Soon is the house Grimaud very successfull
His nephews Leo and Georges Marteau and Julien Emile Boudin are associated to the house Grimaud.
Baptiste Paul Grimaud dies on the 21 April 1899.
After 1909, a new generation appears: Georges Marteau leaves.
Paul Chartier takes the place of his father in 1910 and Paul Marteau takes the place of Leo Marteau in 1920
From 1. January 1946 the house Grimaud has to fight against strong concurreny.
in 1962 the house Grimaud is sold to jean-marie Simon (director of La Ducale).
The location rue de Lancry are left and the factory rue David d'Angers with all the machines is destroyed.
****************
BTW in this post I wrote my thoughts about the origins of the line drawings of the deck:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2061131&postcount=110
Best regards
You gave some nice explanations in this thread
Here are some maybe usefull further informations about the house Grimaud.
These informations are all taken (freely translated and shortened - sorry I am too lazy to translate the whole text) from:
Il était une fois:
B.P. GRIMAUD
Maitre cartier
Un siècle de fabrication de cartes à jouer
This is the number 10/98 of the revue As de Trèfle and I think it was the catalog for the exhibition of 1998 "B.P. Grimaud Maitre Cartier" organised by the Musée d'Issy les Moulineaux by Paris
********************
. Baptiste Paul Grimaud came to Paris at the beginning of the years 1840 (he is 23 years old)
. on the 12 June 1851 he creates la société Grimaud & Cie with two fellows.
. in 1858 he signs a contract with Firmin Chappellier who invented a way to produce cards with round metallised corner.
. As the atelier on Rue de Bondy being too small, Grimaud removes to Rue de Lancry in 1865. The following year he takes apartnership with Charles Chartier.
Soon is the house Grimaud very successfull
His nephews Leo and Georges Marteau and Julien Emile Boudin are associated to the house Grimaud.
Baptiste Paul Grimaud dies on the 21 April 1899.
After 1909, a new generation appears: Georges Marteau leaves.
Paul Chartier takes the place of his father in 1910 and Paul Marteau takes the place of Leo Marteau in 1920
From 1. January 1946 the house Grimaud has to fight against strong concurreny.
in 1962 the house Grimaud is sold to jean-marie Simon (director of La Ducale).
The location rue de Lancry are left and the factory rue David d'Angers with all the machines is destroyed.
****************
BTW in this post I wrote my thoughts about the origins of the line drawings of the deck:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2061131&postcount=110
Best regards
le pendu
Just a reminder that Tarotpedia is a community wiki... meaning that there are no "editors" beyond the members of the community who contribute the time to add and update information. If there is an error, join and correct it yourself, or at least suggest it on the "discussion" page connected to the error.
Tarotpedia only improves when knowledgeable people add to and update it.
Tarotpedia only improves when knowledgeable people add to and update it.
Premdas
Thank you Le Pendu, I didn't not know.
Bertrand
Hello
So if I remember correctly - as I'm not home I don't have the books handy - most of the informations concerning the Camoin story comes from "cartes à jouer et tarot de marseille, la donation camoin", ed Alors Hors du Temps 2004, Marteau's book details come from Marteau's book "Tarot de Marseille" 1981 edition
Merry christmas to whom it may concern !
Bertrand
thank you coredil, although I forgot to mention any sources...coredil said:@ Bertrand
You gave some nice explanations in this thread
So if I remember correctly - as I'm not home I don't have the books handy - most of the informations concerning the Camoin story comes from "cartes à jouer et tarot de marseille, la donation camoin", ed Alors Hors du Temps 2004, Marteau's book details come from Marteau's book "Tarot de Marseille" 1981 edition
Merry christmas to whom it may concern !
Bertrand
