Thoth Prince of Disks

rachelcat

Hi, starting a new thread since I didn't see any about this guy specifically!

Here's my IDS study of the Prince of Disks!

Air of earth. Dust storm? That would be earth of air? I’ve got to go with Snuffin and say nitrogen nodules, air fixed in the earth!

If Princes are fixed, why are they in chariots? And unlike the Chariot, they seem to be moving. If they “go forth to carry out the combined energy of his parents,” why are they the fixed signs? Maybe I don’t understand what fixed means. Well, I looked in an astro book or two, and it’s not making it any clearer. Would a Thoth/GD expert please help me out here?! I mean, I’m assuming the GD folks weren’t just being perverse about it.

I can see chariots as movable thrones, so that makes sense as far as it goes.

I love the animals drawing the chariots. Isn’t this the cutest bull ever? I think he’s tied with the Prince of Wands’ lion and the 2 of Disks snake for cutest Thoth animal. The reins are attached to his nose, so he can feel the directions given to him by the prince. A comment on the insensitivity of the Prince—if the reins were attached somewhere else, he wouldn’t even feel them. This is a very circular card. The background has concentric circles radiating out. The chariot back and front are circles, and the wheels of course. The front has stylized flower petals around the circle. And the prince has two globes, plus all the nodules in the back.

Even though Crowley says the new black (color of earth) is green, this is a very black and brown card, following traditional colors, not the “new” ones, I guess. It looks like the chariot is made of black iron.

Is there some reason why the princes are nude except for their helmets? I think the nudity here is most noticeable here because he is a natural color. The other princes are orange, green, etc. Nudity can symbolize closeness to nature.

His disk is really a globe marked with latitude and longitude marks to show planting and harvest times for the different parts of the world. (One of the books says it’s the sun, but I have to disagree.)

His scepter is topped with a orb and cross, symbolizing sovreignity over the earth and the 4 elements. A circle topped with a cross is the symbol of the prima materia in alchemy, the material that the alchemist begins to work on, like the earth is the material that a farmer begins with. (Oops, Crowley says it is a symbol of the Great Work accomplished! Alchemical symbolism is notoriously confusing.) I kind of go for the beginning. I feel like the plants and seeds in the background are images or ideas of plants that haven’t sprouted yet.

As mentioned, Snuffin says the globs in back are nitrogen nodules that form on the roots of plants. Air in earth, very clever! Duquette says they are seeds, potential movement and growth in an earthy little package, which is cool, too (but not as clever).

Crowley reminds us that Venus rules Taurus and the Moon is exalted, so don’t forget the more feminine aspects of the card—obviously growth and nurturing, but also earthly pleasure and enjoyment.

As a personality, the Prince of Disks is insensitive, slow, and stubborn. And careful, methodical, and determined. He is practical and able to get things done. Duquette calls him the ultimate handyman. He could also be a scientist who like experimental work—getting his hands dirty—especially a biologist or doctor. He thinks deeply about nature, economics, and why things are the way they are. He may be a politician. If he is, he’s a fiscal conservative, but also concerned about environmental (conservation) issues. He is the master of the get rich slow scheme! He makes haste slowly. His favorite animal, after the bull, is the tortoise, and his favorite saying is “slow and steady wins the race.”

Crowley says the I Ching hexagram for the Prince of Disks is 53. Progress. It is made up of the trigram for Wind over the trigram for Mountain (air of earth). (There is also a trigram for Earth, which is the “mother,” most feminine of the trigrams, so Mountain seems more appropriate to equate with the element earth). As Crowley mentions, the line sayings are about the migration of wild geese. The commentary I’m using points out that geese are firmly committed—they mate for life and they stay with their migration groups no matter what. Supported by this social structure, they have great stamina and perseverance to complete their long, arduous migrations twice a year. The line sayings describe obstacles to geese and to humans (“for three years the wife would not conceive”), but in the end, with perseverance, “all goes well.” (This totally makes sense for the Prince of Disks. The Queen of Cups didn’t work at all. I will persevere with the rest of the courts and see what I come up with!)

kernelkole

second Prince of Disks post...

so that rachelcat is not alone in this quest....

this guy has shown up two days in a row for me now, and I had never really encountered him before. in both cases, his positioning indicated that he was representing me, in some aspect. but I denied that, because I couldn't see any similarities. never deny what the cards are trying to tell you...

and, relative to one of rachelcats comments, the Prince of Rods showed up in both readings. in the first reading, he was the first card I put down - pretty much an indication of "me". once again, I couldn't accept that.

I am a Virgo, a scientist, careful, meticulous, etc. not a firey naked guy - then again...we tend to be so weirdly simplistic, don't we, in the midst of such complexity! don't you hear the cosmos yelling "hey, dumbo! look at your hand. look at your feet. look at anything! it's all very intricate.

so, I am now seeing both aspects of myself - both Princess.

I just ended a long relationship with an Airies - she brought out the Wands side- oversimplified again..it's hardly a "side". more like a cluster of characteristic behaviors, which change the overall behvior, depending on the cluster's orientation.

the last spread was a 5-card spread, like a pyramid. there are different ways to look at this, but the postition seems not to matter as much with Mr. Crowley, as does the juxtaposition.

in this case, the Prince of Wands was exactly lower-left, and the Prince of Disks was exactly opposed, in lower-right. this is wereh i saw myself, in a type of transformation, which is true, from living inside a somewhat, although not entirely, foreign nature, that of Wands, and suffereing from it - next card up the left side of the pyramid was 3 Swords.

Opposite the 3 Swords, going down the right side, toward the prince of Disks, was the Ace of Disks. Pretty obvious, I think, that a gounding has to occur, for me to achieve Prince of Diskhood; but it really most likely means grounding in many sesnes of the "material" world - like the nature around me, but also financailly (had a wild financial ride with the Aries, that left me left of center!).

the mystery of the spread remains at the top, the apex. the Ace of Cups. I don't see that one, really. I "know" it, beging a Virgo, but I don't see..
any ideas?

kernelkole

Ace of Cups Apex

I found answers to my questions about the Ace of Cups -

this from similla:
"This reminds me of the uni-directional flow in the Ace. The Ace can flow inwards, or outwards, but it is the Two that does both at once (and hence is Love). When badly dignified the Ace can describe an unhappy relationship, or one sided even (such as an unrequited love) for me. The second half of the card is a reflection and not actually real. Much like the Queen of Cups personality, or the nature of the Moon reflecting the sunlight. "

and this, from tink (I think this is amazing):

"The Thoth deck is the most interesting to me and the most deep! Although owning it for only a few months, I'd like to offer my perception of the grail and the lotus.

The lotus I think, represents love and awareness. If I may bring in astrology, it contains the three water signs, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces.

The zodiacal lotus basis its form through the intersection of three crosses.

Cross the Mother: Mutable (Form)
Cross the Son: Fixed (Consciousness)
Cross of the Father: Cardinal (Spirit)

THey say that the first sip from the Grail is free. Our first taste was usually from our mother's breast and/or the bliss of our first adolescent love affair, the initial taste of ecstasy is a divine gift - why would we question such beautiful rapture. The door to our heart flies open, our minds reel, the feet dance! We're never quite the same after that. It whets our appetites for what could be. Wow! it whets our appetite, it makes us hungry, alive, emotionally.

But they say the second taste -- now that's going to cost you! To drink again requires a distinct sacrifice of the familiar. We are beckoned into a world unknown. The more sips we take, the more sacrifices we must give to be slowly transformed.

On the Mutable cross we (victim) don't understand our suffering, until we move to the fixed cross of understanding and through this process of knowledge and wisdom, move to the Cardinal cross of self awareness.

The three spheres would then be the integration of the three crosses, body, mind and spirit. The integration of the Lotus. "

finalstan

If Princes are fixed, why are they in chariots? And unlike the Chariot, they seem to be moving.

To me, Princeses represent the highest understanding of their respective element. Their movement is symbolical - it represents the flow of air = mind. You have to admit, that mind sometimes acts faster, than anything else. That doesn't mean they ACT on the outside world (which belongs rather to fire: Knights) - it means they are wise and simply know 'how' (for example: make money). It envolves movement and yet not necessarily: knights act, they are impulsive. Princeses on the other hand act only, when the situation needs it.

That's why they act as standard Kings and to me are higher in order, than Knights.

kernelkole

Princesses

finalstan said:
To me, Princeses represent the highest understanding of their respective element.

Prince or Princess? Either way, it's interesting....

Crowley associates that Tarot with the Holy Qabalah, specifically the Tree of Life. Princesses are not physically "in" the tree - they govern the four realms of space - in the universe, or wherever you choose to place space. So, similar to what you wrote, they do represent something higher than the elements themselves.

I think he (Crwoley) attributes the essence of each element to the Ace card for that element. But what you wrote was more interesting...that the Prince is the highest "understanding" - so, not an essence, but a mental manifestation of an element.

so, that is great for me, becuase it makes the Prince of Disk at the point of understanding the world "through" the earth, through the knowing of the earth, you can reach a higher plane.

and that understanding that you come to, through the earth, is different, but not better or something, than the same plane of understanding you would get through, say, the Prince of Swords - only through Air.

finalstan

kernelkole said:
Prince or Princess? Either way, it's interesting....

Princes, I meant Princes

My english is a constant work-in-progress

kernelkole said:
But what you wrote was more interesting...that the Prince is the highest "understanding" - so, not an essence, but a mental manifestation of an element.

so, that is great for me, becuase it makes the Prince of Disk at the point of understanding the world "through" the earth, through the knowing of the earth, you can reach a higher plane.

and that understanding that you come to, through the earth, is different, but not better or something, than the same plane of understanding you would get through, say, the Prince of Swords - only through Air.

Well, if you see Prince (or King) of Cups for example as a psychologist (as it's often portrayed), then you see the picture. Psychologist is someone who knows how to steer emotions to achieve the goal of 'peace' in someones life. Queen of Cups on the other hand is more intuitive in her understanding of this (Queen=water). Therefore she's ultrasensitive, and thus often depicts fortune tellers.

Princes indeed are 'equal' in their maturity. It depends on the situation, whether it's best to be the one of Disks, rather than, say, Swords. But their way of understanding the world, as a process, is the same (using their mind=swords), they only focus on different areas (respective suits).

I always prefer to be as precise, as possible and less philosophical (although I enjoy philosophy very much). This is a philosophical dispute, but Princes and any other court card often represent very specific aproach in life. Prince of Cups might be someone, who tries to understand the world through understanding of how feelings 'work' but more often this card depicts sensitive, simply caring guy. Or a psychologist, as I said before. You have to understand how cards speak to YOU.

finalstan

kernelkole said:
so, that is great for me, becuase it makes the Prince of Disk at the point of understanding the world "through" the earth, through the knowing of the earth, you can reach a higher plane.

I gave this a second thought and came to a conclusion, that in the end it's true. It's what life is about, to reach a higher plane, then the previous one we had been on. We use different methods, according to our talents, upbringing etc., which make us a specific person (represented in one of the court cards). Maybe it's ones destiny, to become the Prince of Disks - that's his 'job' to explore this area, to achieve the goal which was written within him before his birth. That apllies to women as well, of course.

One more thing, may be off topic: people change and through life one can change his area of exploration. I myself was once Prince of Swords, but suddenly Tarot told me, that I'm no longer. I became the Prince of Cups. I saw this couple of times for different people, so being someone doesn't determine much. You determine your own destiny, in the end

kernelkole

higher plane

I don't know why I wrote that the Prince helps you achieve a higher plane - because I'm not sure that a Prince represents a real person in our lives.

But then you used the analogy of the Prince of Cups being a psychologist. I am very weak in Tarot, so i had never heard this before - and maybe you were just comparing the Prince of Cups effect as the same effect or action that a psychologist has. that is also interesting.

but then you said that you used to be a Prince of Swords - that interests me the most, becuase it implies that Prince cards can represent us, once again, my Tarot skills are poor, so I'm just learning. Is that generally the case with Prince cards? I have read that Knight cards do represent a real person, and at one point I felt a strong connection with the Knight of Cups.

I liked your notion that the Prince cards represent a way to understanding - something like the Tao - a force, a power, a path. but that is me philosphising. I don't now what I am talking about.

at the time the Prince of Disks was coming up, I had just made a severe break with a very shallow materialistic life, and had returned to a life with nature. I live on the ocean, and I spend a great deal of time every day immersed in the sun, and , and water - and that has really healed me, and given me a deepr understanding. so, I saw the Prince of Disks as a return to a life connected with nature.

finalstan

kernelkole said:
I don't know why I wrote that the Prince helps you achieve a higher plane - because I'm not sure that a Prince represents a real person in our lives.

Everyone develops the understanding of court cards over time - perhaps even very long periods of time. You can get through Majors and Minors in a snap, but courts tend to cause the most problems. At least that's how it was for me. I do Tarot professionally and it still amazes me how many different stories are behind court cards. Right now, to me, Kings (Princes) and Queens represent real people. Knights and Princesses (Pages) represent specific approaches needed in certain situations or they show the actual approach. That's in general... but on not-so-rare occasions they show something different. You can write a heavy book on courts alone!

kernelkole said:
But then you used the analogy of the Prince of Cups being a psychologist. I am very weak in Tarot, so i had never heard this before - and maybe you were just comparing the Prince of Cups effect as the same effect or action that a psychologist has. that is also interesting.

It's very common and very helpful in readings. Prince of Disks is often an accountant, estate agent, banker etc. It's someone who works with nature too. Prince of Swords is often a teacher, IT programmer, lecturer on a university etc. Other cards help to narrow this a bit.

kernelkole said:
but then you said that you used to be a Prince of Swords - that interests me the most, becuase it implies that Prince cards can represent us, once again, my Tarot skills are poor, so I'm just learning. Is that generally the case with Prince cards? I have read that Knight cards do represent a real person, and at one point I felt a strong connection with the Knight of Cups.

They DO represent real people. That's what court cards are for in the first place! Princes are real people, and so are Knights. But... In my readings Knights often show a process of change in someones life (or a tendency not to change anything = Knight of Disks). Knight of Wands is often a vehicle, car etc. Knight of Cups: casanova type of guy or someone who fights to maintain a relationship (or an advice to do so). Etc.

kernelkole said:
at the time the Prince of Disks was coming up, I had just made a severe break with a very shallow materialistic life, and had returned to a life with nature. I live on the ocean, and I spend a great deal of time every day immersed in the sun, and , and water - and that has really healed me, and given me a deepr understanding. so, I saw the Prince of Disks as a return to a life connected with nature.

And you were right! That Prince is the most calm of all Princes. And Disks signify connection with matter, which nature is after all. Your feelings and intuition will tell you what are the meanings behind certain cards - Tarot is all about developing that connection with yourself. Then, you won't have to learn anything - you will be creative in your readings and that's the truth behind good and accurate readings.