Cristina Fiorini

Huck

DoctorArcanus said:
Thank you, Huck: I was actually thinking of the Trionfi.com page you pointed out.
From Kaplan, I had the impression that the Knight that can best be compared to a St.George is the Knight of Batons, not the Kinght of Swords (I think Kaplan explicitly writes so). It there an image of the Knight of Batons somewhere on the internet?

Marco

Yes, you're right with that. I've the Kaplan, but I've no online picture. There is a much smaller dragon, the horse is turned to the other side and the head of the horse is turned upwards, but similar small. But in the total impression rather similar.
 

Ross G Caldwell

One of the reasons I disputed Fiorini's, and by extension Bellosi's, attribution of the cards to Giovanni del Ponte, is because I couldn't see the same artist at work in the St. George and the Knight of Batons.

I shared these thoughts first with Michael Hurst, and he looked too; then he looked more precisely at some of what was available of Giovanni on the web, and the Rothschild cards, and came up with this collage of facial comparisons:

rothschildgiovanni.jpg


The top nine images are from the Rothschild cards; the bottom fourteen are from three works of Giovanni -

1---2---3---4
----------7--
5---6-------8
9----10---11
--12---13---14

Reading them as the numbers above, they are -

1 and 9: Two evangelists, Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam, SK-A-3979 and 3980 (35x14cm), dated 1410-1435

2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8: Ascension of St. John the Evangelist, National Gallery, London, NG580 (triptych, 207x250 cm), dated 1410-1420.

10, 11, 12, 13, 14: Coronation of the Virgin, Galleria dell'Accademia, Firenze (couldn't find the catalogue number or size), no date found.

Giovanni's facial proportions and style remains consistent from large to small works, and across time.

Comparing with the card's faces and heads, it doesn't seem to be the same style. Particularly noteworthy are the presence of well-formed ears in Giovanni's paintings, whereas in the cards there are few and they are little more than circles.

Also, the faces are squat, and the noses are not long in the cards, whereas all of Giovanni's faces have very long noses.

The particular way of indicating curls in beards and hair isn't so similar between the two in this side-by-side comparison.

When we consider that Giovanni was already an accomplished miniaturist (from what I understand) already since a teenager, and that the smaller Evangelists of the Rijksmuseum, not quite double that of the cards, show the same traits and detail as the larger works, it seems evident to me that it is not the same artist.

Comparing Bembo's larger works with his cards (say in Kaplan II, pp. 132 and following), it is apparent that little of the style and subtlety is lost despite the diminution of size and the other constraints of the medium. Both larger and smaller works are immediately recognizable as the same artist, particularly in the faces. The card-artist's and Giovanni's personal style seem completely different from one another.

I think that the case for Giovanni as the artist of the cards can be dismissed on the basis of stylistic differences alone. But for me the most compelling evidence against a 1420 date (if not against Giovanni, who lived until 1437 at least) is the pattern of the documentary, physical and iconographic data, as given in the chart below.

For other significant features of other cards, like the Charles VI (and Rosenwald Sheet!), like the aureoles Marco noticed in Giovanni's painting of the Liberal Arts (very good point, IMHO!), these argue I think for a Florentine provenance... but can be shown to persist much later in Florentine art.

Next post, maybe even tonight!

Ross
 

Rosanne

Sometimes you guys are hard to follow along with ! :D
I take it that C. Fiorini has said that Rothschild cards (8) may be painted by Giovanni Del Ponte- which would also include a single Bassano del Grappa card of the Knight of Swords. These cards have the same frame as the Gringonneur cards and the Emperors have the same Crown. They come from Florence. Because they maybe the earliest cards and the Grigonneur cards have 17 trumps- this threatens the 5X14 theory?
Have I got it right?
Well the burnt cards on page 119 Kaplan Vol.1 appear to have the same frame as the Rothschild and the Griggoneur and Sigismund's Crown appears to be the one that the Empress wears on many TdM cards :D I reckon it looks like the the crown of the House of Trastamara (Alphonso V??) Anyway if you look at the burnt cards the Ace of Swords it appears the Sword is held by a Gloved hand-so the frames do not speak much to me- maybe the tooled frame was standard?
~Rosanne
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Rosanne,

Rosanne said:
Sometimes you guys are hard to follow along with ! :D

LOL - you think so ;) ?

But you've done a pretty good job, so I guess we're not that obscure. We could do better, if you like.

I take it that C. Fiorini has said that Rothschild cards (8) may be painted by Giovanni Del Ponte- which would also include a single Bassano del Grappa card of the Knight of Swords.

Yes, she took up the opinion first expressed by Luciano Bellosi, a well respected Florentine art historian, in 1985.

These cards have the same frame as the Gringonneur cards and the Emperors have the same Crown. They come from Florence.

That's the contention, and it seems easy to get everyone to agree.

Because they maybe the earliest cards and the Grigonneur cards have 17 trumps- this threatens the 5X14 theory?

No - the Gringonneur cards have 16 Trumps and a Page of Swords. What would threaten the 5x14 theory is Fiorini's (or even my) suggested date - 1420 (or c. 1450). This "threat" in turn depends on whether you believe that the decks in question were "standard" tarot decks, with 22 trumps. Huck doesn't believe that, so it doesn't threaten the theory.

Have I got it right?

Mostly - congratulations!

Well the burnt cards on page 119 Kaplan Vol.1 appear to have the same frame as the Rothschild and the Griggoneur

How can you tell they have the same border? I know my eyes are bad, but... I don't see quite the same pattern on the outermost part. I agree they look old, and are worthy of further study, but as far as I know, they have not been published or even mentioned in research anywhere else (except for maybe a mention of a design of a particular card).

and Sigismund's Crown appears to be the one that the Empress wears on many TdM cards :D

I'm not sure it's fruitful to compare the two categories of decks directly like that, even if the comparison were striking (and I'm not sure which ones you're thinking of).

I reckon it looks like the the crown of the House of Trastamara (Alphonso V??) Anyway if you look at the burnt cards the Ace of Swords it appears the Sword is held by a Gloved hand-so the frames do not speak much to me- maybe the tooled frame was standard?
~Rosanne

That type of border was obviously standard somewhere, and it seems likely Florence at a particular time or with a particular group of cardmakers. But what do you mean by "tooled"?

Ross
 

Huck

DoctorArcanus said:
I am not sure this has already been pointed out in the recent threads, but the Seven Arts in the Prado painting mentioned on http://trionfi.com/0/c/40/ have the same polygonal black halo that can be seen on the so called Charles VI.

Marco

Hi, Marco
I didn't first understand, what you mean. But:

The 3 of 4 VIRTUES inclusive the card world - which in the 4x15-theory is regarded as the 4th virtue - (totally 4 cards) of the Charles VI deck have not the same, but similar polygonal black halos aound their head as the SEVEN ARTES in a picture of GIOVANNI DEL PONTE of ca. 1435.

That's indeed interesting.
So ... here is the halo of a representation of one of the seven artes at one picture

black-halo.jpg


And the female artes has the halo, but not the accompanying philosopher.
(and this is so for all other 6 artes).

artes-liberalis.jpg


and here are the 3 Charles VI. virtues + World, and all 4 cards have the halo and other similarities (clothes and figure):

08.jpg

14.jpg

11.jpg

21.jpg


The other have no halo, for instance not ..

00.jpg


Well, Marco, that's really nice. Thank you.

###

And here we do meet an older argument ... I think, rather long ago ...

07.jpg


We see here shields at the chariot with "7 palle" and the lower part of the picture also filled with the same forme.

The Medici had "7 palle" as a stemma earlier and changed that in 1465 to "6 palle", which became then the stable sign of the family. In earlier times they had even more palle.

Now does figure also appear as imprints also at the Bembo-cards, so one has difficulties to decide, if this are just decorations or meaningful signs. So its difficult ...

But perhaps there is way to say, that these cards were from "before 1465".
 

mjhurst

Hi, Ross,

Ross G Caldwell said:
For other significant features of other cards, like the Charles VI (and Rosenwald Sheet!), like the aureoles Marco noticed in Giovanni's painting of the Liberal Arts (very good point, IMHO!), these argue I think for a Florentine provenance... but can be shown to persist much later in Florentine art.

The polygonal nimbus/halo/aureole/glory as an attribute of various virtues (not merely the seven Cardinal Virtues) was used by Giotto and his follower Taddeo Gaddi. It probably goes back further (but I can't find my notes on it) and it was not uncommon. [P.S. It was relatively uncommon, but was not rare.] It does seem to be associated most strongly, but certainly not exclusively, with Florentine art and, more to the point, Florentine decks. Its most interesting use in Tarot is the Charles VI World card, where it suggests that the figure is intended as a virtue instead of or in addition to her usual meaning.

Best regards,
Michael

P.S. I looked up the terms, FYI. Halo or nimbus is just what you would expect. They might be circular, cross-shaped or triangular for you-know-who, square (usually for living persons including the patrons of a work), and polygonal (sometimes including square but often six-sided) for the virtues. An aureole is a radiance that encompasses the enter figure, and a mandorla is a special, almond-shaped form of aureole. Finally, a glory is a radiance that surrounds both the halo/nimbus and the aureole. Or, if you're not so pedantic, they are all used rather freely.
 

Huck

mjhurst said:
Hi, Ross,



The polygonal nimbus/halo/aureole/glory as an attribute of various virtues (not merely the seven Cardinal Virtues) was used by Giotto and his follower Taddeo Gaddi. It probably goes back further (but I can't find my notes on it) and it was not uncommon. It does seem to be associated most strongly, but certainly not exclusively, with Florentine art and, more to the point, Florentine decks. Its most interesting use in Tarot is the Charles VI World card, where it suggests that the figure is intended as a virtue instead of or in addition to her usual meaning.

Best regards,
Michael

I tried to find only one example, also with the help of these names (Giotto and Gaddi) ... with negative result.

Really common is the round hallo, all else should be rather uncommon.
 

mjhurst

Huck said:
Really common is the round hallo, all else should be rather uncommon.

Sorry. I thought that was too obvious to mention, given the number of times we've talked about representations of the virtues, but you are certainly correct. In the vast majority of cases the virtues are NOT shown with haloes of any type. However, when they are shown with haloes, it is usually polygonal. [P.S. Correction: outside of Italy, they were apparently always round.] There should be some examples online... I'll see what I can find.

P.S. #1. The first example I found is a great one, on a page I hadn't seen before. Someone has posted pics from the famous and influential gilded bronze Baptistry doors, in Florence, by Andrea Pisano, (1330-36). Eight virtues are show, the seven Cardinal Virtues plus Humility, and all wear the hexagonal halo.

Reliefs, South Doors, Florence Baptistry
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/italy/florence/pisanosouth/pisanosouthdoors.html

P.S. #2. One of the examples I was thinking of are the famous Franciscan Allegories of Giotto. The Web Gallery of Art describes them: "In the crossing vault of the Lower Church of San Francesco at Assisi, Giotto created an impressive culmination, both of the paintings there and of Franciscan iconography. Around the keystone with its representation of the Christ of the Apocalypse, the allegories of the three Franciscan virtues and St. Francis in Glory are painted in a radiant halo in the compartments of the vault." Here are some examples.

Poverty
http://www.wga.hu/html/g/giotto/assisi/lower/crossing/21allego.html

Obedience
http://www.wga.hu/html/g/giotto/assisi/lower/crossing/31allego.html

Chastity
http://www.wga.hu/html/g/giotto/assisi/lower/crossing/41allego.html

P.S. #3. Some more illustrations can be found here.

Vasari's Life of Giotto
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/giorgio.vasari/giotto/giotto1.htm

There are some books you can access via Google Books which talk about this. I think the best search term is "hexagonal nimbus", and I've put a link to one of them below. They describe this motif and other works that illustrate it. They relate it specifically to Italian works, and some identify it with Franciscans, but that is certainly too narrow. (The book below suggests that haloes, round ones, are a common attribute of the virtues. That seems wrong, both from what I've seen and from what I've read elsewhere. [P.S. See correction above.]) Also, I'm sure that Katzenellenbogen talked about it in his Allegories of the Virtues and Vices in Medieval Art, but I haven't got time at the moment to look for it.

Christian Iconography:
Or, The History of Christian Art in the Middle Ages
By Adolphe Napoléon
http://books.google.com/books?id=KLBMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81
 

Huck

Yes, that's very nice.

Great.

And interestingly it's again in Florence.

And somehow it turns obvious, that inside the Charles VI deck the motiv "World" was regarded as a virtue (likely Prudentia).

Something, which the 5x14-theory preaches for the World inside the 6 additional cards (Pierpont-Morgana-Bergamo-deck) since years - cause of completely other reasons.

Whereby inside the entended 5x14-theory the assumption exists, that the 6 additional came from Florence in the year 1465.

***
The door was made 1330-36. A door is something, which many persons see. So the idea might spread well in Florence.

... :)
a really nice improvement, Michael.