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Lore347  Lore347 is offline
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Lore347 

Thank you for the well thought out reply, Ross.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell
For Crowley the structure of the Tree was inviolable. The Sephiroth are 1-10 and the Alphabet paths between them stay where they are. Heh still mediates between Chokhmah and Tiphereth.

What changes are the cards *on* the paths, and the Zodiacal attributions of the cards - so the Star takes Aquarius up to Heh, and the Emperor takes Aries down to Tzaddi.

The "double loop" refers to the symmetry this Thelemic change makes with the earlier Cypher Manuscript G.D. change to the astrological attributions of Leo and Libra to Strength and Justice.
This touches upon the issue I am wrestling with (and have been for about 8 years off and on). I do not "see" the double loop.

Path and Hebrew order are the same, that organization is considered immutable in both the Golden Dawn and Thelemic traditions. If you lay out the cards in Thoth order, then yes you are forced to switch two pairs of cards to reorganize them into Hebrew order. There is a double swap in this case. I assume the whole "revolving" comment by Crowley and mentioned by you relates to this fact? This is the only case I can find where two swaps are present in any reordering. We don't even look at the Zodiac in this case.

As far as the Zodiac relates to the issue, only one swap is ever made at any one time. In Thoth order only Leo and Libra are transposed since Emperor-Aries and Star-Aquarius remain intact. If you shift the cards into Hebrew order you fix Leo-Libra and disorder Aries-Aquarius. If you instead place the cards in Zodiac progression, only Heh and Tzaddi are out of sequence if we look only at the Hebrew attributes.

The only way I can see a "double loop" when one is using the Zodiac as a measure is if we reorganize our cards based on the Zodiac first and then allow the single instance of Major Arcana disorder to be one "swap" and the single Hebrew disorder to be a second. I cannot find an organization pattern involving the Zodiac that ever has 2 pairs of cards transposed using only one additional set of attributes beyond the astrological, either using Golden Dawn or Thelemic Systems.

Here is my data, maybe I am making a mistake or missing an important comparison:
Code:
***Golden Dawn***
Hebrew and Tarot Attribution: No Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Hebrew and Zodiac Attribution: No Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Tarot and Zodiac Attribution: No Swaps
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---



***Thelema***
Hebrew and Thoth  Attribution: 2 Swaps
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 017 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 004 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---

Hebrew and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 090 100 200 300 400
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Aqu Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Ari Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---

Thoth and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010 011 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Ari Tau Gem Can Lib Vir --- Leo --- Sco Sag Cap --- Aqu Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

*Thoth Reorganized (Hebrew Order) and Zodiac Attribution: 1 Swap
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 017 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 004 018 019 020 021
Zodiac Attribute: --- --- --- --- Aqu Tau Gem Can Leo Vir --- Lib --- Sco Sag Cap --- Ari Pic --- --- ---
Zodiac Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---

*Thoth Reorganized (Zodiac Order) and Hebrew Attribution: 1 Card Swap, 1 Hebrew Swap (2 Swaps total)
Card Number: ---- 000 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 011 009 010 008 012 013 014 015 016 017 018 019 020 021
Card Disorders: - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *B* --- --- *B* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hebrew Letter: -- 001 002 003 004 090 006 007 008 009 010 020 030 040 050 060 070 080 005 100 200 300 400
Hebrew Disorders: --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *A* --- --- --- ---
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