mtnmermaid
Lately I'm having a hard time telling these apart. They can both be about self-interest, gossip, slander, scheming, etc. taking something that's not yours, right? So how are they different?
difference between the 5 & 7 of swords?
MercyMe
I'm looking at the RWS, so that's where I'm taking the imagery.
5 of swords shows various people on the card, usually, and a situation in which there really are no genuine winners. The one who prevails does so in what can be seen as a dishonorable way. The ones walking away have apparently decided it's just not worth the effort or the cost. They'd rather leave their swords, say their piece, and let it go. Although the "winner" seems to be gloating, it's really a hollow victory. The opponents have said, "Fine, have it your way but I'm not going to stick around. Bye!" He may have "won" the argument, but only because he was such a boorish pig nobody cared to try and engage him in actual debate. So he didn't really win and he may come to realize that one day.
Five's are about challenge, crisis, gaining and losing, change. Swords are air, and this card is about "the winds of change." Swords also represent thoughts and communication, so mental challenges and debate would be signified by this five. It's like the figures leaving have changed their minds, they thought this effort was worth it but then decided it wasn't. One seems rather distressed by this decision, and the other seems more hopeful and confident, but it's like they both said, "Nah, nevermind, it's just not worth it." So what did the "winner" win? He's left with everyone's two cents, opinions, and arguments to sort through. He already had a few swords of his own and now he's got theirs, too. Good luck trying to carry all those around. While he may initially be thinking, "Hah! I got my way!" he'll soon find the weight of it burdensome.
Which brings me to the Seven of Swords. A lone figure taking on more swords than he can handle. In fact...five. (hmmmm....?) There's no one around to challenge his thinking. No voice to balance the ones in his own head. He thinks the ends justifies the means, or simply that he's right, so he'll carry out his own thoughts and plans regardless what anyone else thinks or says. He's not listening to them anyway. In this regard people can be daring or dangerous or both. He isn't automatically wrong. He very well may be right and it's just that he's going against the crowd. Loners have been known to have very good ideas. But instead of standing and fighting for his stand, as in the 7 of wands, he's saying, "F*** 'em, I'll do this on my own my own way." He really doesn't want to share his thoughts with anyone right now. They probably wouldn't understand anyway. Or they might talk him out of it. Sevens are about dreams, imagination, fantasies...he's gotten so caught up in his own thinking that it has set him apart from others. Scheming, strategizing, devising plans, and carrying them out on one's own isn't necessarily evil, but one does need to be careful.
~Mercy
5 of swords shows various people on the card, usually, and a situation in which there really are no genuine winners. The one who prevails does so in what can be seen as a dishonorable way. The ones walking away have apparently decided it's just not worth the effort or the cost. They'd rather leave their swords, say their piece, and let it go. Although the "winner" seems to be gloating, it's really a hollow victory. The opponents have said, "Fine, have it your way but I'm not going to stick around. Bye!" He may have "won" the argument, but only because he was such a boorish pig nobody cared to try and engage him in actual debate. So he didn't really win and he may come to realize that one day.
Five's are about challenge, crisis, gaining and losing, change. Swords are air, and this card is about "the winds of change." Swords also represent thoughts and communication, so mental challenges and debate would be signified by this five. It's like the figures leaving have changed their minds, they thought this effort was worth it but then decided it wasn't. One seems rather distressed by this decision, and the other seems more hopeful and confident, but it's like they both said, "Nah, nevermind, it's just not worth it." So what did the "winner" win? He's left with everyone's two cents, opinions, and arguments to sort through. He already had a few swords of his own and now he's got theirs, too. Good luck trying to carry all those around. While he may initially be thinking, "Hah! I got my way!" he'll soon find the weight of it burdensome.
Which brings me to the Seven of Swords. A lone figure taking on more swords than he can handle. In fact...five. (hmmmm....?) There's no one around to challenge his thinking. No voice to balance the ones in his own head. He thinks the ends justifies the means, or simply that he's right, so he'll carry out his own thoughts and plans regardless what anyone else thinks or says. He's not listening to them anyway. In this regard people can be daring or dangerous or both. He isn't automatically wrong. He very well may be right and it's just that he's going against the crowd. Loners have been known to have very good ideas. But instead of standing and fighting for his stand, as in the 7 of wands, he's saying, "F*** 'em, I'll do this on my own my own way." He really doesn't want to share his thoughts with anyone right now. They probably wouldn't understand anyway. Or they might talk him out of it. Sevens are about dreams, imagination, fantasies...he's gotten so caught up in his own thinking that it has set him apart from others. Scheming, strategizing, devising plans, and carrying them out on one's own isn't necessarily evil, but one does need to be careful.
~Mercy
mtnmermaid
Ok, so direct aggression vs. covert aggression? Is that it? The guy on the 5 is an open bully, he's openly insulting you or whatever, so in theory you can fight back openly, but the implication is that he's more powerful in some way, so you can't win, so you have to walk away, lose the battle to win the war, so to speak.
In the 7 it's still about fighting but the guy in the 7 is covert, right, it's not in the open? Like the kind of person who'll stand there and agree with you and be all diplomatic so you think things are fine, but then undermine you behind your back where you can't defend yourself. Oh! THe implication there would be that he doesn't have the advantage, right? Because why would he have to sneak around if he could nail you openly?
So....if I got the 5 in, say, a relationship spread, I'd prepare for a fairly direct power play from the other person, right? One that I couldn't win and it would be better for me to just not fall for it when I see it coming. But if I got the 7, well then I ought to be prepared for something more passive-agressive?
Or if, say, it was a card referring to people talking or gossiping, because I've seen both cards defined that way too - the 5 would be front page slander, public insult type of thing, but the 7 would be like people are looking at me funny and I don't know why until I sneak around and uncover some kind of rumor?
Am I getting closer? I'm just trying to put it into a context so I can get it more clearly.
In the 7 it's still about fighting but the guy in the 7 is covert, right, it's not in the open? Like the kind of person who'll stand there and agree with you and be all diplomatic so you think things are fine, but then undermine you behind your back where you can't defend yourself. Oh! THe implication there would be that he doesn't have the advantage, right? Because why would he have to sneak around if he could nail you openly?
So....if I got the 5 in, say, a relationship spread, I'd prepare for a fairly direct power play from the other person, right? One that I couldn't win and it would be better for me to just not fall for it when I see it coming. But if I got the 7, well then I ought to be prepared for something more passive-agressive?
Or if, say, it was a card referring to people talking or gossiping, because I've seen both cards defined that way too - the 5 would be front page slander, public insult type of thing, but the 7 would be like people are looking at me funny and I don't know why until I sneak around and uncover some kind of rumor?
Am I getting closer? I'm just trying to put it into a context so I can get it more clearly.
psychicbody
Personally, I hate the way Tarot butchers the numbers 5 and 7; especially in the Swards suit where it also murders the number 3. Guess it all depends on how well the system you use explains the actual cards to you, is where you might get confused.
I get confused with these, too. Usually, they dont show up a lot for me, so I luck out lol
The 5 (for the Tarot) represents a loss or instability. I think of it as like a leak in a water bucket. For the Swards, the 5 is supposed to represent losing an arguement, or losing your position in the social/political scene. Because swards are about the mind, this "loss" may invalve cunning and deception: et tu, Brute?
The 7 (for Tarot) is more or less "running away with ideas". Instead of losing your position, you are being back-stabbed. However, someone explained to me that this card does have a good side, in that the person may have the upper-hand in this situation. Like the 7 in numerology, the 7 of Swards means you have a better sense of judgement and are able to see the trouble that is happening around you.
The way that I think is more logical and is more concistant with Numerology, than Tarot goes like this:
5/Swards: being as the 5 represent expanding boundries, for Swards it means that you have geined the upper hand in a situation; or that you are going to be promoted somehow. This card could represent curiosity, as well.
7/Swards: the 7 representing the wisdom geined from the 6's harmony, this card could be the "lesson learned" card. Someone has an epiphany and realizes the truths in their situation. The can no longer be manipulated.
I get confused with these, too. Usually, they dont show up a lot for me, so I luck out lol
The 5 (for the Tarot) represents a loss or instability. I think of it as like a leak in a water bucket. For the Swards, the 5 is supposed to represent losing an arguement, or losing your position in the social/political scene. Because swards are about the mind, this "loss" may invalve cunning and deception: et tu, Brute?
The 7 (for Tarot) is more or less "running away with ideas". Instead of losing your position, you are being back-stabbed. However, someone explained to me that this card does have a good side, in that the person may have the upper-hand in this situation. Like the 7 in numerology, the 7 of Swards means you have a better sense of judgement and are able to see the trouble that is happening around you.
The way that I think is more logical and is more concistant with Numerology, than Tarot goes like this:
5/Swards: being as the 5 represent expanding boundries, for Swards it means that you have geined the upper hand in a situation; or that you are going to be promoted somehow. This card could represent curiosity, as well.
7/Swards: the 7 representing the wisdom geined from the 6's harmony, this card could be the "lesson learned" card. Someone has an epiphany and realizes the truths in their situation. The can no longer be manipulated.
MercyMe
mtnmermaid said:
Kinda? I don't really see it as "aggression" per se, just that you're really not going to get anywhere with that guy. Maybe he's thick headed or so convinced of his own mind that there just isn't any talking to him. It *can* be aggressive, in which case it's often better to walk away than to fight, especially if he's being unreasonable. Sometimes, the cards tell you that *you're* that guy. Which is why what psychicbody says is true -- it could mean you've got the upper hand, you just won the argument without even having to fight because your position was just that solid. (Or you could be being stubborn and boorish, depending)
If you got the 5 in a relationship issue, it usually means one or the other party is acting as through their argument is superior, so superior in fact that they aren't even listening to what you have to say. See, whether or not their argument IS superior isn't the issue. It may be, which is why the others just give up immediately. It may not be, but he's just being such an idiot they're not bothering. The 7 is definitely more covert. The guy doesn't want to be found out. He may very well feel justified in what he's doing and how he's doing it, but yeah, passive aggressive might be a good way to look at this one.
Yeah, I would agree with this. However, as you can see the cards both have a much wider range of meaning, too.
~mercy
mtnmermaid
Ok, I think I'm getting a grasp on it now, I guess it depends a lot on the other cards that come up with it too, to figure out exactly what it's saying. But thanks to both of you, your comments cleared up the confusion I was having about them both seeming so alike. 
Willa
Greetings mtnmermaid ,
I think both the fives and and sevens indicate particular problems. With the fives I see that each particular problem offers the querent a solution.
the sevens however seem to me to represent a situation in which the querent is not in control. When you relate the 7's to the chariot the querent should explore ways in which she/he finds and maintains control of opposing forces.
mtnmermaid As an e.g the seven of swords is a thief card ...someone rather sneaky... how does one catch a sneaky thief, first you have to define what the thief is stealing from you...is it monetary, or your honor, your time...this card implies that someone is stealing something from the querent. (how does the querent take control of this situation?)
Peace and Love
I think both the fives and and sevens indicate particular problems. With the fives I see that each particular problem offers the querent a solution.
the sevens however seem to me to represent a situation in which the querent is not in control. When you relate the 7's to the chariot the querent should explore ways in which she/he finds and maintains control of opposing forces.
mtnmermaid As an e.g the seven of swords is a thief card ...someone rather sneaky... how does one catch a sneaky thief, first you have to define what the thief is stealing from you...is it monetary, or your honor, your time...this card implies that someone is stealing something from the querent. (how does the querent take control of this situation?)
Peace and Love
Sulis
Fives and Sevens
This is how I see it.
The 5s and the 7s both represent changes, challenges.
The 5s represent changes that are unexpected..... we're quite happy with the stability of the 4s but to stay there would make us stagnant - the soul needs to grow and move on. So along comes the 5 and shakes everything up. It's a necessary change though - as I've said, we can't stay with the 4 for too long. The 5s relate to the Hierophant - they are changes that we need to go through and that we learn from but they're not easy changes.
In the 5 of Swords the change is thrust upon us, it's unexpected and so is usually difficult. I think of the 5 of Swords as arguments, changes of mind - it comes half way through the suit and can be a little like a mini-Tower experience - a revelation.
The 7s also represent change but the change of the 7 is one that we enter into willingly. We choose to leave the balance and harmony represented by the 6s in order to move onto the strength and mastery of the 8s.
7 is quite a magical number, it represents a sort of initiation and is related to the control and victory elements that we see in The Chariot.
I don't particularly like the sneaky thief image in the RWS style decks. To me Swords represent the mind, communication and also conflict - because the mind and words can hurt as well as heal.
The 7 of Swords to me means using your intellect and wit to solve a problem. The problem arises but we choose how to to solve it - that's the 7.
Thats's my take -hope that helps.
There are some numerology threads over in Divination that you may find helpful - here's a link: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11533
Love
Sulis xx
This is how I see it.
The 5s and the 7s both represent changes, challenges.
The 5s represent changes that are unexpected..... we're quite happy with the stability of the 4s but to stay there would make us stagnant - the soul needs to grow and move on. So along comes the 5 and shakes everything up. It's a necessary change though - as I've said, we can't stay with the 4 for too long. The 5s relate to the Hierophant - they are changes that we need to go through and that we learn from but they're not easy changes.
In the 5 of Swords the change is thrust upon us, it's unexpected and so is usually difficult. I think of the 5 of Swords as arguments, changes of mind - it comes half way through the suit and can be a little like a mini-Tower experience - a revelation.
The 7s also represent change but the change of the 7 is one that we enter into willingly. We choose to leave the balance and harmony represented by the 6s in order to move onto the strength and mastery of the 8s.
7 is quite a magical number, it represents a sort of initiation and is related to the control and victory elements that we see in The Chariot.
I don't particularly like the sneaky thief image in the RWS style decks. To me Swords represent the mind, communication and also conflict - because the mind and words can hurt as well as heal.
The 7 of Swords to me means using your intellect and wit to solve a problem. The problem arises but we choose how to to solve it - that's the 7.
Thats's my take -hope that helps.
There are some numerology threads over in Divination that you may find helpful - here's a link: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11533
Love
Sulis xx
Willa
Greetings Sulis,
I'm sorry Sulis but I have never seen the 7 of Swords as anything but negative. I do not believe the 7 of Swords represents the attributes of Major Arcana Chariot e.g. willpower, control, discipline on the contrary the 7 of Swords is quite the opposite and should be seen as a thief, acting out in an illogical manner, and considering a poor plan of action in resolving it.
I agree with you when you say a problem arises but we choose how to solve it. However when we are deciding how to handle it we should consider all the options wisely, or there very well... will be unexpected consequences.
Love and Peace,
I'm sorry Sulis but I have never seen the 7 of Swords as anything but negative. I do not believe the 7 of Swords represents the attributes of Major Arcana Chariot e.g. willpower, control, discipline on the contrary the 7 of Swords is quite the opposite and should be seen as a thief, acting out in an illogical manner, and considering a poor plan of action in resolving it.
I agree with you when you say a problem arises but we choose how to solve it. However when we are deciding how to handle it we should consider all the options wisely, or there very well... will be unexpected consequences.
Love and Peace,
Sulis
Willa said:
If you use the image only then I can (almost) see your point. IMO there is so much more to a card than just the image though. The RWS card does show a sneaky looking guy, yes but he has used his intellect to solve the problem he's in.
When I read I use the suit, the element and the number to get the meaning I'm looking for as well.
No card has a purely negative meaning - every single card in the deck has a range of meaning. To say a card is purely negative means that you're missing out on so much of what it could be saying to you.
Take another traditionally 'negative' card - the 10 of Swords - do you see this purely as the image shows? A guy with 10 swords sticking out of his back or do you incorporate the numerology and recognise that the 10 means it is the end of a cycle? There is no need to worry any more, things are getting better. Stop analysing things - the time for thinking is over.
The RWS style decks tend to make quite a few of the cards negative when really there is a full range of meanings. Ask a Marseilles reader how they interpret the 3 of Swords, the 5 of Swords, the 7 of Swords and the 10 of Swords - their meanings won't be negative (unless their intuition tells them that that's the way to go) - I guarauntee it
Take a look at the DruidCraft 7 of Swords, or the Fey - maybe not quite so negative now.
Sulis xx
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