Etteilla Pattern Variations and offshoots--shall we explore?

**Cerulean** · 30-05-2005

There are at least three patterns and various reproductions. There are offshoots in Spain, France and Italy available via reproduction. There are questions whether there are any English-American variations (likely not?)

For example (and to be edited)

Questions
A Prototype Piquet to Tarot
a) Jeu des Dames (Editions Dussierre and Lo Scarabeo) - French--likely the first after the petit Etteilla?

b) Variation by Dal Negro of Spanish historical deck (sometimes distributed through U.S. Games in the U.S.) - Spanish --> Is this type I? They added Christian Kabbalah references

B
1) Etteilla Type I

2) Etteilla Type II

French - Lismon 1880-1890

3) Etteilla Type III

C. Offshoots

1. Papus - Is this part of Type III?

2. Modiano Trieste Caligstro - is this truly an Etteilla variation

3. Some of the Egyptian styles

**Cerulean** · 30-05-2005

http://www.meta-religion.com/Esoteri...tarot_deck.htm

For now, PLEASE, if there are questions, only about the clear Etteilla variations to the Papus Tarot. There are other threads about 20th-century modern Egyptian tarots in general patterned after Paul Christian's essays--but I noted in C. there are offshoots and those are worthy of there own thread and further study.

At the moment, I'm trying to sort though Etteilla variations that I have come across since reading Mark Filipas essay.

This grew out of a small conversation about Etteilla Type II, which may not have had modern reproductions as of 2005.

Best regards,

Cerulean

Rusty Neon · 30-05-2005

(1) Etteilla I
"Grand Etteilla I was Etteilla's own pack and its immediate descendants." Decker et al, "Wicked Pack of Cards", p. 147

The photoreproduction deck for this pattern that is the most easily obtainable is the Grimaud edition of the Grand Etteilla. http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/dec....php?newdeck=9 . Some of the keywords of that edition have been revised from those of earlier printed Etteilla decks. And the card title font is different - It is in mixed case (rather than all caps). The titles are English and French, rather than French only. However, all that said, it's the only Grand Etteilla in print.

There is also another photoreproduction deck for the Etteilla I pattern: the Dusserre edition - a photoreproduction of a circa 1840 specimen at the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris. I was lucky to pick the Dusserre when it was still in print. (However, this should not be confused with the Dusserre Etteilla III mentioned below.)

It should be noted that even the 1840 version (card images from which are reproduced in Kaplan's encyclopedia) has somewhat different keywords from even earlier versions of the Grand Etteilla. The Grand Etteilla deck first was printed circa 1789-89. If I recall correctly, Kaplan's encyclopedia also has images of a pre-1840 Grand Etteilla deck too.

Nonetheless, any differing keywords used in the Grimaud version of the Grand Etteilla are generally Etteilla School synonyms for the card keywords. Ironically, the Grimaud deck's revised keywords make it easier to use for divination.

_______________

(2) Etteilla II

To my knowledge, no commercial photoreproduction decks are available for this pattern.

This pattern is Simon Blocquel's re-working.
Images essentially similar to Etteilla I but changed in some respects. (In contrast, Etteilla III has totally different imagery from Etteilla I.)
Reference: "Wicked Pack of Cards".

_______________

(3) Etteilla III:

e.g.: Tarot Egyptien
Grand Jeu de Oracle des Dames

Éditions Dusserre
http://www.wicce.com/1890egyptien.html
Lo Scarabeo
http://www.tarotpassages.com/etteillathoth-lb.htm

_______________

(4) Jeu de la Princesse

The Jeu de la Princesse deck is also Etteilla-based. But it doesn't have a Hoffman/Kroppensedt numbering classification (Grand Etteilla I, II and III). There is no Etteilla IV but if there was, this would be it.

e.g.:

Lo Scarabeo "Ancient Esoteric Tarots"
http://www.learntarot.com/eadesc.htm

Dusserre has or had a photoreproduction of this one too. With original French titles, not Lo Scarabeo's multilingual titles.

**Cerulean** · 30-05-2005

1. I think this earlier Grimaud Grand Etteilla resembles the Edition Dussierres 1840:

http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm

Still working through variations....I'll list this with the Editions Dussierre version.

2. I have the 1969 version--someone won it through Ebay and then traded it to me with booklet.

3. The third version in print, I don't have.

Thanks for your information!

Cerulean

TarotBoy · 26-03-2007

Ok, Im lost with the Etteilla... Can anyone explain to me...?

**Cerulean** · 26-03-2007

or questions....if you feel lost.

The Etteilla pattern was a fashionable style of cards printed for fortune-telling purposes in the 1800s. Tarot fans who like history have read there are variations in the styles printed over time and have called the patterns I, II and III for their different variations...

I hope my explanation means something...I'd be glad to suggest links, if I can find them...you are welcome to post a few questions here. If the questions start going too far off topic, perhaps a private mail would be best.

If I cannot answer the questions, I'll let you know.

Best wishes,

Cerulean

**jmd** · 26-03-2007

Not sure what you're asking, TarotBoy.

Think of the Etteilla as a deck to the 19th century as what the Waite Colman Smith is to the 20th: major modifications, highly popular, with a number of variants.

The variants can be classed according to three broad specimens as mentioned above.

TarotBoy · 26-03-2007

oh heavens no, I'm asking how many types of deck are there.... like book of thoth & esortic ect...

**jmd** · 27-03-2007

Etteilla considered that Tarot was the 'book of Thoth', and so would have applied this name to all tarot decks, even if many would be considered as corrupted. Similarly, each would have been considered as having esoteric significance.

The different 'types' of Etteilla decks, then, are all, in some way or other, books of 'Thoth' and incorporating esoteric elements.

The classification into types refer to what can be differentiated in design.

...either that or I'm missing the central part of the question.

Cerulean Repose in a Eve of Gold... Join Date: 26 Apr 2002 Location: Calif., USA Posts: 9,338	Etteilla Pattern Variations and offshoots--shall we explore? There are at least three patterns and various reproductions. There are offshoots in Spain, France and Italy available via reproduction. There are questions whether there are any English-American variations (likely not?) For example (and to be edited) Questions A Prototype Piquet to Tarot a) Jeu des Dames (Editions Dussierre and Lo Scarabeo) - French--likely the first after the petit Etteilla? b) Variation by Dal Negro of Spanish historical deck (sometimes distributed through U.S. Games in the U.S.) - Spanish --> Is this type I? They added Christian Kabbalah references B 1) Etteilla Type I 2) Etteilla Type II French - Lismon 1880-1890 3) Etteilla Type III C. Offshoots 1. Papus - Is this part of Type III? 2. Modiano Trieste Caligstro - is this truly an Etteilla variation 3. Some of the Egyptian styles __________________ Still, cerulean surges... where, as sunset lingers Eve with golden fingers... Hector A. Stuart South Sea Dreamer, 1886

30-05-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #1

Cerulean Repose in a Eve of Gold... Join Date: 26 Apr 2002 Location: Calif., USA Posts: 9,338	A useful start: Mark Filipas essay http://www.meta-religion.com/Esoteri...tarot_deck.htm For now, PLEASE, if there are questions, only about the clear Etteilla variations to the Papus Tarot. There are other threads about 20th-century modern Egyptian tarots in general patterned after Paul Christian's essays--but I noted in C. there are offshoots and those are worthy of there own thread and further study. At the moment, I'm trying to sort though Etteilla variations that I have come across since reading Mark Filipas essay. This grew out of a small conversation about Etteilla Type II, which may not have had modern reproductions as of 2005. Best regards, Cerulean __________________ Still, cerulean surges... where, as sunset lingers Eve with golden fingers... Hector A. Stuart South Sea Dreamer, 1886

30-05-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #2

Rusty Neon Citizen Join Date: 12 Mar 2003 Location: Land of Snow and Ice (O Canada) Posts: 4,843	(1) Etteilla I "Grand Etteilla I was Etteilla's own pack and its immediate descendants." Decker et al, "Wicked Pack of Cards", p. 147 The photoreproduction deck for this pattern that is the most easily obtainable is the Grimaud edition of the Grand Etteilla. http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/dec....php?newdeck=9 . Some of the keywords of that edition have been revised from those of earlier printed Etteilla decks. And the card title font is different - It is in mixed case (rather than all caps). The titles are English and French, rather than French only. However, all that said, it's the only Grand Etteilla in print. There is also another photoreproduction deck for the Etteilla I pattern: the Dusserre edition - a photoreproduction of a circa 1840 specimen at the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris. I was lucky to pick the Dusserre when it was still in print. (However, this should not be confused with the Dusserre Etteilla III mentioned below.) It should be noted that even the 1840 version (card images from which are reproduced in Kaplan's encyclopedia) has somewhat different keywords from even earlier versions of the Grand Etteilla. The Grand Etteilla deck first was printed circa 1789-89. If I recall correctly, Kaplan's encyclopedia also has images of a pre-1840 Grand Etteilla deck too. Nonetheless, any differing keywords used in the Grimaud version of the Grand Etteilla are generally Etteilla School synonyms for the card keywords. Ironically, the Grimaud deck's revised keywords make it easier to use for divination. _______________ (2) Etteilla II To my knowledge, no commercial photoreproduction decks are available for this pattern. This pattern is Simon Blocquel's re-working. Images essentially similar to Etteilla I but changed in some respects. (In contrast, Etteilla III has totally different imagery from Etteilla I.) Reference: "Wicked Pack of Cards". _______________ (3) Etteilla III: e.g.: Tarot Egyptien Grand Jeu de Oracle des Dames Éditions Dusserre http://www.wicce.com/1890egyptien.html Lo Scarabeo http://www.tarotpassages.com/etteillathoth-lb.htm _______________ (4) Jeu de la Princesse The Jeu de la Princesse deck is also Etteilla-based. But it doesn't have a Hoffman/Kroppensedt numbering classification (Grand Etteilla I, II and III). There is no Etteilla IV but if there was, this would be it. e.g.: Lo Scarabeo "Ancient Esoteric Tarots" http://www.learntarot.com/eadesc.htm Dusserre has or had a photoreproduction of this one too. With original French titles, not Lo Scarabeo's multilingual titles. Last edited by Rusty Neon; 30-05-2005 at 06:38.

30-05-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #3

Cerulean Repose in a Eve of Gold... Join Date: 26 Apr 2002 Location: Calif., USA Posts: 9,338	Grimaud Grand Etteilla circa 1910 through 1989 1. I think this earlier Grimaud Grand Etteilla resembles the Edition Dussierres 1840: http://www.gambler.ru/sukhty/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm Still working through variations....I'll list this with the Editions Dussierre version. 2. I have the 1969 version--someone won it through Ebay and then traded it to me with booklet. 3. The third version in print, I don't have. Thanks for your information! Cerulean __________________ Still, cerulean surges... where, as sunset lingers Eve with golden fingers... Hector A. Stuart South Sea Dreamer, 1886 Last edited by Cerulean; 30-05-2005 at 12:34.

30-05-2005	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #4

Cerulean Repose in a Eve of Gold... Join Date: 26 Apr 2002 Location: Calif., USA Posts: 9,338	You are welcome to private mail your question... or questions....if you feel lost. The Etteilla pattern was a fashionable style of cards printed for fortune-telling purposes in the 1800s. Tarot fans who like history have read there are variations in the styles printed over time and have called the patterns I, II and III for their different variations... I hope my explanation means something...I'd be glad to suggest links, if I can find them...you are welcome to post a few questions here. If the questions start going too far off topic, perhaps a private mail would be best. If I cannot answer the questions, I'll let you know. Best wishes, Cerulean __________________ Still, cerulean surges... where, as sunset lingers Eve with golden fingers... Hector A. Stuart South Sea Dreamer, 1886

26-03-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #6

TarotBoy Resident Join Date: 16 Mar 2007 Location: Mexico Posts: 86	Ok, Im lost with the Etteilla... Can anyone explain to me...?

26-03-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #5

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	Not sure what you're asking, TarotBoy. Think of the Etteilla as a deck to the 19th century as what the Waite Colman Smith is to the 20th: major modifications, highly popular, with a number of variants. The variants can be classed according to three broad specimens as mentioned above.

26-03-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #7

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	Etteilla considered that Tarot was the 'book of Thoth', and so would have applied this name to all tarot decks, even if many would be considered as corrupted. Similarly, each would have been considered as having esoteric significance. The different 'types' of Etteilla decks, then, are all, in some way or other, books of 'Thoth' and incorporating esoteric elements. The classification into types refer to what can be differentiated in design. ...either that or I'm missing the central part of the question.

27-03-2007	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #9

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