chosson tarot deck - Page 3

le pendu · 26-02-2008

Hi eugim,

right! The details do jump around a lot. Sometimes Noblet agrees with Dodal, sometimes Noblet agrees with Vieville, sometime he agrees with Chosson. If we start adding in more decks we continue to see similarities and differences between each and every deck we examine. I do believe that we can divide them "basically" into TdM I and TdM II, but that's a general container.

There are lots of questions that, as far as I know, no one has the answer to. We don't know when the TdM was originally created, although we have some pretty good guesses. We don't know if it looked more like the Dodal or the Conver, but we have guesses. We don't know when the two styles (at least!) split, or why, or where. We're missing the first couple of hundred years of history on the TdM.

I love to try to figure it out, but I'm just guessing too. I look at the details, just like you are, and compare them to each other on all of the decks, and then try to figure out which of them is oldest.

To my eye, there is no doubt that the Dodal is closely related to the Jean Payen, if not from the same hand or workshop... yet there are differences.

The Chosson and the Conver are very similar.. yet there are differences.

The Dodal is also related to the World card found in the Sforza Castle. The Sforza Castle World card is, I think, extremely important.

When the Dodal and the Conver/Chosson disagree on some item in the iconography, usually the Noblet also has that difference... which shows a relationship between the Noblet and the Dodal... and we can see enough of them to call it TdM I, (for instance, the top of the canopy on The Chariot is different from TdM II).

You might find this interesting, it's a short article about "Hunting for the "true" TdM" that I wrote a couple of years ago:
http://association.tarotstudies.org/...rs/news44.html

PS.
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding the actual question that you would like to discuss.

eugim · 26-02-2008

LE PENDV ! / So you are Robert Mealing !
Well I Ignored.I read your article before and still find it very very interesting.That s the kind of hunt I like because all we have are the images-ideas of the decks.
As Tchalai Unger said "Tarot is in the Tarot ".
We know France conquest Milan in 1499.From then to for example Dodal as you said we have virtually 200 years.What happened ?
In the center of the mist of the unknown may be Dodal rework prior decks with a confluence of differents sources of styles.And may be others later or before do the same.
Each one stamp "his finger" on the deck in an artistic sense I mean.
They know each other decks ? // Dodal knew Noblet Paris deck ?
In the middle we have 50 years and differents distant places
For me is very intriguing those cross differences and similiraties bettween both groups jumping in time and place.
Again,They know each other decks ?
Cards speaks from themselves and I am agree with that the work of compares them with other decks is the only way totry to understand.
For example Vieville LE MAT go to the left when in the rest of the deck we mentioned LE MAT go to the right (To where ?)
Again with LE PENDV // Dodal-Chosson-Vieville numbered IIX but Vieville put him upward
Why I always thought that Vieville looks somewhat like an outsider ? Or may be he is much older than the others or simply another style?
See his LA MAISON DIEV for only one example ...
Which is the connection with the others decks we mentioned ?
Vieville is the only who don t named the cards.
May be this mean this is a older deck created when the image speak for itself ?
May be later Tarots added name to the cards with the purpose that the people have a common understanding about them?
See his XIII,XV and LE MAT going to the left
One can connect with Noblet in the case of his LA MORT but not the others.
His XXI is the only who cross the Angel with the Bull and the Eagle with the Lion.
I try just to keep the Images of the cards in mind and of course "feeling" them.
For example I am convinced that LA LVNE is a solar eclipse like I said to Yves Les Marseilles ,but this is my feel ,inside feel...
But I always want to have an objective Start point (card evidence) to then begin to feel it.
Well I expect don t bore you ..
You are an upward LE PENDV like the Vieville or a downward like Dodal ? (friendly said)
Again I keep your article as a select reading.

eugim · 27-02-2008

Mr. Robert Mealing (Minnings ...)
LE PENDV : I m from Argentina that s so far of the center "earth point " of our warm friendly discussion or change what I think "minds lights "
I m really very happy have the chance for really have an opportunity to be "here"
I sadly know that s my english Is too much close too nothing,but I do my best effort to stay here...
I know that I can be too Sarcastic (I m a mix of inmigrant Italians,Irish and English so the blood rules.as you knows !!! )

Returnig to our Tarot ...
I revisited again you site that s I said I ignored it s yours
Well ! / One of my Selected Star Lights !!!
Curiously you have an Essay about Vieville when In my later post I talk you about him.

LE PENDU : What do you think about the "reversal " images and number in the case of you (LE PENDV )
Can we think as an " error " of the engraver
The reverse I mentioned that s Andy pointed are positive-negative plate-card
What Vieville "wants" to say Us with the suppose LA MAISON DIEV more close with the Saggita ?
Why LE BATELEVR see LA PAPESE,why she see the next coming cards to come ?

LE PENDV : May be the frightful possibility that our "Ami " made the images not with too much intention ?
Could be the chance to consider that may be a little chance that one of them ( not that whom knows from history "yet") put only "one " finger enough too consider him (Its Type 1 or 2 ? )
Honestly I think here We are all of Us have just the Images and historic evidences of them.
There are and I m agree with you,very too very very very few sites for "Hunting" (Very Viking too ...) But them leaves Us with the "And Then What ?")
You that had your "Scrums " crossings Decks /I knows that...
But For me I always let s my Soul "free of ME "l(after the images were "SAW" ) Never before.

Good Night

PS: Another ...
How could put a photo likes the others on my posts ?

**jmd** · 27-02-2008

[and a belated from myself as well, eugim]

With regards to the 'reversal' of the numbering of XII as IIX, I personally do not find that significant - though interesting especially in light of possible exegesis with XXI (the 'inverse' of IIX in quite a number of ways), and in other exegetical ways.

In the additive form of Roman numeration, twelve is as much IXI as it is IIX or XII, though convention places the higher values first (ie, X before I) - '1999' would NOT be written as MIM but as MDCCCCLXXXXVIIII.

eugim · 27-02-2008

JMD : Sorry but I can t understand your expression ([and a belated from myself as well, eugim])

How much intentional purpose do you think had the engravers with the "details",those which us give too much attention ?
Do you think they "count" the drops of LE SOLEIL to match them with other or previous decks?
I mean they really want to be carefull with details ?
What do you they could think about our intense card-images analysis ?
May be they surprise astonished for the importance we give ?

See you next !

**Debra** · 27-02-2008

Hello again eugim.

I agree--I think that the card artists did not always care about the symbols and the details. They just wanted to make the cards and sell them for money.

---------Also------

I think jmd meant "a belated WELCOME to you."

You cannot put pictures in your posts unless you pay to be a subscriber. Subscribers pay US $25/year. They have a little "star" next to their names. Everyone who is not a subscriber is a "member" with no star.

Members can put a link, and we click on the link to see the picture.

eugim · 28-02-2008

Hello Debra?
Thank s once more.
Respect if the engraver had intentional purpose whith the details like the exactly number and place of the drops of the Sun for example in LE SOLEIL,I only made an answer,I don t believe he wasn t intentional but just only my feel.
Of course the last purpose was sell them but may be he put his personal touch in the images.

-To all at the thread / I know I gone somewhat out of the topic of Chosson deck.But I only made visual contrast analysis with others deck because like LE PENDV I strongly think that s the only way to understand of these kind of questions.

Have you all a nice day !

le pendu Citizen Join Date: 22 Oct 2003 Location: Maison de Santé Posts: 3,078	Hi eugim, right! The details do jump around a lot. Sometimes Noblet agrees with Dodal, sometimes Noblet agrees with Vieville, sometime he agrees with Chosson. If we start adding in more decks we continue to see similarities and differences between each and every deck we examine. I do believe that we can divide them "basically" into TdM I and TdM II, but that's a general container. There are lots of questions that, as far as I know, no one has the answer to. We don't know when the TdM was originally created, although we have some pretty good guesses. We don't know if it looked more like the Dodal or the Conver, but we have guesses. We don't know when the two styles (at least!) split, or why, or where. We're missing the first couple of hundred years of history on the TdM. I love to try to figure it out, but I'm just guessing too. I look at the details, just like you are, and compare them to each other on all of the decks, and then try to figure out which of them is oldest. To my eye, there is no doubt that the Dodal is closely related to the Jean Payen, if not from the same hand or workshop... yet there are differences. The Chosson and the Conver are very similar.. yet there are differences. The Dodal is also related to the World card found in the Sforza Castle. The Sforza Castle World card is, I think, extremely important. When the Dodal and the Conver/Chosson disagree on some item in the iconography, usually the Noblet also has that difference... which shows a relationship between the Noblet and the Dodal... and we can see enough of them to call it TdM I, (for instance, the top of the canopy on The Chariot is different from TdM II). You might find this interesting, it's a short article about "Hunting for the "true" TdM" that I wrote a couple of years ago: http://association.tarotstudies.org/...rs/news44.html PS. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding the actual question that you would like to discuss. __________________ Increasingly suspicious of the "system of soothing" and sensibly inclining toward the infinitely superior "system of Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether". Last edited by le pendu; 26-02-2008 at 10:27.

26-02-2008	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #21

eugim Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2008 Location: buenos aires,argentina Posts: 509	Hunting in the Mist ... LE PENDV ! / So you are Robert Mealing ! Well I Ignored.I read your article before and still find it very very interesting.That s the kind of hunt I like because all we have are the images-ideas of the decks. As Tchalai Unger said "Tarot is in the Tarot ". We know France conquest Milan in 1499.From then to for example Dodal as you said we have virtually 200 years.What happened ? In the center of the mist of the unknown may be Dodal rework prior decks with a confluence of differents sources of styles.And may be others later or before do the same. Each one stamp "his finger" on the deck in an artistic sense I mean. They know each other decks ? // Dodal knew Noblet Paris deck ? In the middle we have 50 years and differents distant places For me is very intriguing those cross differences and similiraties bettween both groups jumping in time and place. Again,They know each other decks ? Cards speaks from themselves and I am agree with that the work of compares them with other decks is the only way totry to understand. For example Vieville LE MAT go to the left when in the rest of the deck we mentioned LE MAT go to the right (To where ?) Again with LE PENDV // Dodal-Chosson-Vieville numbered IIX but Vieville put him upward Why I always thought that Vieville looks somewhat like an outsider ? Or may be he is much older than the others or simply another style? See his LA MAISON DIEV for only one example ... Which is the connection with the others decks we mentioned ? Vieville is the only who don t named the cards. May be this mean this is a older deck created when the image speak for itself ? May be later Tarots added name to the cards with the purpose that the people have a common understanding about them? See his XIII,XV and LE MAT going to the left One can connect with Noblet in the case of his LA MORT but not the others. His XXI is the only who cross the Angel with the Bull and the Eagle with the Lion. I try just to keep the Images of the cards in mind and of course "feeling" them. For example I am convinced that LA LVNE is a solar eclipse like I said to Yves Les Marseilles ,but this is my feel ,inside feel... But I always want to have an objective Start point (card evidence) to then begin to feel it. Well I expect don t bore you .. You are an upward LE PENDV like the Vieville or a downward like Dodal ? (friendly said) Again I keep your article as a select reading.

26-02-2008	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #22

eugim Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2008 Location: buenos aires,argentina Posts: 509	About the nearest oldest ... Mr. Robert Mealing (Minnings ...) LE PENDV : I m from Argentina that s so far of the center "earth point " of our warm friendly discussion or change what I think "minds lights " I m really very happy have the chance for really have an opportunity to be "here" I sadly know that s my english Is too much close too nothing,but I do my best effort to stay here... I know that I can be too Sarcastic (I m a mix of inmigrant Italians,Irish and English so the blood rules.as you knows !!! ) Returnig to our Tarot ... I revisited again you site that s I said I ignored it s yours Well ! / One of my Selected Star Lights !!! Curiously you have an Essay about Vieville when In my later post I talk you about him. LE PENDU : What do you think about the "reversal " images and number in the case of you (LE PENDV ) Can we think as an " error " of the engraver The reverse I mentioned that s Andy pointed are positive-negative plate-card What Vieville "wants" to say Us with the suppose LA MAISON DIEV more close with the Saggita ? Why LE BATELEVR see LA PAPESE,why she see the next coming cards to come ? LE PENDV : May be the frightful possibility that our "Ami " made the images not with too much intention ? Could be the chance to consider that may be a little chance that one of them ( not that whom knows from history "yet") put only "one " finger enough too consider him (Its Type 1 or 2 ? ) Honestly I think here We are all of Us have just the Images and historic evidences of them. There are and I m agree with you,very too very very very few sites for "Hunting" (Very Viking too ...) But them leaves Us with the "And Then What ?") You that had your "Scrums " crossings Decks /I knows that... But For me I always let s my Soul "free of ME "l(after the images were "SAW" ) Never before. Good Night PS: Another ... How could put a photo likes the others on my posts ?

27-02-2008	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #23

eugim Citizen Join Date: 15 Feb 2008 Location: buenos aires,argentina Posts: 509	To Debra Hello Debra? Thank s once more. Respect if the engraver had intentional purpose whith the details like the exactly number and place of the drops of the Sun for example in LE SOLEIL,I only made an answer,I don t believe he wasn t intentional but just only my feel. Of course the last purpose was sell them but may be he put his personal touch in the images. -To all at the thread / I know I gone somewhat out of the topic of Chosson deck.But I only made visual contrast analysis with others deck because like LE PENDV I strongly think that s the only way to understand of these kind of questions. Have you all a nice day !

28-02-2008	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #27

jmd fourhares Join Date: 05 Aug 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,502	[and a belated from myself as well, eugim] With regards to the 'reversal' of the numbering of XII as IIX, I personally do not find that significant - though interesting especially in light of possible exegesis with XXI (the 'inverse' of IIX in quite a number of ways), and in other exegetical ways. In the additive form of Roman numeration, twelve is as much IXI as it is IIX or XII, though convention places the higher values first (ie, X before I) - '1999' would NOT be written as MIM but as MDCCCCLXXXXVIIII.

27-02-2008	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #24

Debra sporadic magic Join Date: 21 Sep 2006 Location: island in a sea of stars Posts: 13,014	Hello again eugim. I agree--I think that the card artists did not always care about the symbols and the details. They just wanted to make the cards and sell them for money. ---------Also------ I think jmd meant "a belated WELCOME to you." You cannot put pictures in your posts unless you pay to be a subscriber. Subscribers pay US $25/year. They have a little "star" next to their names. Everyone who is not a subscriber is a "member" with no star. Members can put a link, and we click on the link to see the picture.

27-02-2008	Ask a Professional Tarot Reader Top #26

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