Swords: what's the correct upright position?

[shaveling]

Lumen (I love your screen name.),

Like yourself, I have my swords pointing up. But that doesn't particularly come from a conviction about how the cards were originally oriented. The system I use for interpreting numbers sees all the odd numbers as carrying forward the original force of the Ace, and the even numbers as opposing that force. So I want the sword in the center, which echos the Ace, to point in the same direction as the sword on the Ace.

As you have seen in this forum, much has been said about which way is up in the Swords. It's sort of interesting that the same sort of interest isn't generated by some other cards where we can raise the same question.

In the suit of Batons, for instance, with the six of Batons, I put the plant with the longer skinnier leaves on top. I call it the "Praise the Lord" plant, because it reminds me of someone at a prayer meeting lifting up his arms in spiritual exaltation. With the four of Batons, I put daisy-like plant with the big, open flower on top, because I figure it's healthier because it gets more sunlight.

And then there's the seven of Coins. That's fun these days because, if you turn it one way, it's the geomantic figure called Rubeus, and the other way, it's the geomantic figure called Albus. And so you have a choice of having your card in the Hagrid or the Dumbledore position. I'm a Hagrid boy, myself.

But people don't go on about these things nearly as much as about the odd-numbered Swords. I don't know why, but that seems to be the way it is.

If you add many decks to your collection, it can be fun to see where the publishers agree and disagree with you about these matters. I've gotten quite blasé about spinning a card around to my favored position, no matter what sort of keys the publisher may have provided to steer me in another direction.

[conversus]

While I was engaged in JMD's very informative class on the Marseille Tradition, I very dutifully turned all the odd sword points down in my Noblet pack. JMD has strong opinions about this. I have preserved this in my Noblet deck.

This arrangement seems somehow right in the Noblet, but it just strikes me as wrong, wrong, wrong in any of the Conver or later versions of the Marseille pattern ; so in all my other decks the odd swords are steadfastly upright just like the ace!

Odd, I know.

CED

[coredil]

Originally Posted by shaveling

And then there's the seven of Coins. That's fun these days because, if you turn it one way, it's the geomantic figure called Rubeus, and the other way, it's the geomantic figure called Albus. And so you have a choice of having your card in the Hagrid or the Dumbledore position. I'm a Hagrid boy, myself.

Talking about the Seven of Coins (and about Right and Wrong and about Printers) how do you find this one?

[Bernice]

Hi shaveling,

There is a thread which discusses the 6 Batons. You can post your ideas to it;

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=123645
~~~

Please people, do look in the Formum Table of Contents for listed cards, the pips, courts and of course, the Trumps. If a thread for the card you are studying isn't there please create one and it will be added to the list

Table of Contents:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=31857

Bee


coredil, Good find. Maybe the artist could'nt count !

[Bernice]

Had another thought about the Swords pointing downwards. Moonbows' post reminded me.

Apparently red indians wore a head feather pointing down as 'peace' sign. If pointing upright = war! I expect this could be transferred to the Sword suit.

However, I'm not a historian of the red indian nation. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

Bee

[thinbuddha]

Originally Posted by shaveling

A cut flower, with a bit of stem and a couple of leaves in that world is called a "slip." (Well, in English-speaking heraldry.) The flower goes up, the leaves are in their growing position, and the cut stem points down.

I've spent close to an hour looking at some examples of heraldry online, and I have to say that I haven't really seen anything definitive. I couldn't find a single example of a plant by itself the way they are on the sword cards in question. Usually, they were emerging from behind some other object (not showing a cut) or if they were cut, they were being held by something or someone (such as on the U.S. seal where an eagle is holding laurel). Sometimes the plants were used as a decorative motif to frame an image, or section off part of an image, and often, the leaves were pointing down and up in the same image, the way that ivy sometimes grows.

Long story short, I don't really see any definitive evidence one way or the other in the world of heraldry either.

[Lumen]

Sorry for disappearing... I've been looking for an apartment and a job at the same time; it's been frustrating to say the least.

Anyway...

Hi Yara,

I'm with you on the non-reversal of TdM - there are positive and negative meanings for every card; the neighboring cards, the card's position in the spread, and the reader's intuition, in my opinion, are the one's to determine which influence is at work in a particular reading.

Shaveling,

Thanks, and here is the story behind my name: Lumen is for Lumena, my second name, an adaptation of Filomena - my father wanted to name me after Santa Filomena (I'm Brazilian, and that name is in Portuguese), but my mother didn't like the name, so my father changed it to Lumena, which is the Portuguese version of the Latin Lumen: Light. Sorry for the long sidebar...

I also see odd numbers as active, and they usually appear so, unless the cards next to it, or its position in the reading says the opposite. To me the sword suit is active; it acts fast, for this reason I placed the swords up as the logical position. I really have not looked into wand suit as deeply as you did; I see these cards as Xs, or intertwine, connections, energy coming together, and as the numbers rise so does the complexity of connections.

As for 7 of coins the Tarot de Marseille Denier Pattern thread has totally changed the meaning of this card to me. Excuse the ignorance, but I have no idea what are Rubeus and Albus are, nor what they mean; do you care to elaborate? Before I read that thread on coins, I saw the card as 3 over 4, and the only 7 that exemplified the numerology meaning for 7, as the others are 3+3+1; but then I read the thread... Now I see 3 within 4, and it really makes sense to me, as, in my view, coins mean matter, and 4 structure...

Thinbuddha,

As an avid gardner (retired for the moment...), I have to say that in order to trim roses one must cut in an angle and take them with their leaves, this will allow more growth and a profuse flowering. In the Grimaud's deck the flowers with stems are only found in swords and wands suits, and the stem is cut at an angle, which makes me think that the artist was also a gardner, now if the the cut is to indicate that the plant itself will have more growth, is yet another depth of discussion.

Lumen

[shaveling]

Originally Posted by thinbuddha

I've spent close to an hour looking at some examples of heraldry online, and I have to say that I haven't really seen anything definitive.

Nothing definitive, I agree.

Naturalistic plants are unpopular charges in heraldry, especially older heraldry. And the most common flower, the rose, is normally shown without a stem or leaves. A classic exception are the lilies on the arms of Eton College. No leaves there, and the little thingie at the bottom that might be a bit of stem isn't always shown. But the flowers are in the growing position. They're always shown that way, even though the blazon doesn't mention their orientation. And when a blazon doesn't mention orientation, that normally means there's a usual orientation, and it is the one to be used.

Another example with a "sometimes there, sometimes not" bit at the bottom, are the pineapples in the arms of Jamaica (which date back to the sixteen-sixties). But there again, the fruit is shown in its growing position with the leaves at the top, and the yummy part at the bottom.

The best examples should be the plant badges of the British Crown. The rose is only sometimes shown with a stem, but the thistle or the shamrock pretty much always have one, and it points down. The leek for Wales, like Jamaica's pineapple, is leaves on top and yummy part down, as if the plant were growing. Sometimes you can find plant badges combined. The Stuarts liked showing the rose and thistle sprouting from a single stem. And if you see a picture of the coronation of Queen Elilzabeth II, the damask hangings show a combined Thistle, Rose, Shamrock, and Leek, all under the crown, woven specially for the occasion.

But, like yourself, I'm having a devil of a time finding pictures of any of this on the Internet. Argh! And I doubt it's worth spending a lot of time on, if you're looking for something definitive. Heraldry and the TdM are very different things. Heraldry was high-falutin' and fancy, and the TdM was mass produced for the people at large. So even if there were a royal decree controlling the depiction of plants in heraldry, it wouldn't apply to how the card-makers did their work. Ditto, bits of damask in old pictures.

Personally, I'm not looking for something definitive. What I've seen makes me feel that just as people today would generally think of a flower, blossom down and stem up, as upside-down; so would people in earlier generations. That's just my take on the aesthetics of a bygone time. And my take (which others may not share) on things is certainly not definitive.

[shaveling]

Originally Posted by Lumen

Excuse the ignorance, but I have no idea what are Rubeus and Albus are, nor what they mean; do you care to elaborate?

My real point (badly expressed) in my earlier post was that, though there are other cards in the TdM that could leave us wondering which end is up, it seems to be the Swords that generate the most discussion. (And, I expect, the most emotional commitment.) I find that interesting. The references to the other cards was just for illustration.

But just to clear up the confusion I've caused: Geomancy is a system of divination, and the results of the process are recorded in a set of patterns of dots, called "figures." The two figures that match the Seven of Coins are named Rubeus and Albus. Those are also the first names of major characters in the Harry Potter series, the headmaster, Albus Dumbledore, and the half-giant, Rubeus Hagrid. When I called myself a Hagrid boy, I was just saying I preferred the card in the position that matches the figure "Rubeus." I just meant the orientation of the card, it wasn't a comment on meaning or interpretation.

To return to the swords: Another way to sort out which way is up, if you have a deck with hilted swords, is to decide whether the hilts on the outermost pair of curved swords should mark the top or the bottom.

The major complication here is that there seems to be a convention that the swords in the Nine should be rendered useless, or crazy or something. Because in the Nine, the curved swords have either hilts at both ends, or points at both ends. If you have a Universal Marseille, or another Burdel deck, or the Tarot Classic (really a Schaffhouse) you can see what I mean. The IJJ Swiss deck follows that same convention. The outermost pair has hilts at both ends, so you can call it hilts on top or hilts on bottom, whichever you please. But if you try to sort your deck with the points at the top or bottom of the outermost pair of swords, you're in trouble.

By the way (and strengthening thinbuddha's point, I think), hilts on the bottom will give you swords pointing down and flower stems pointing up, like in our wood-blocks. Until you get to the ten, anyway. The wood-blocks aren't for hilted swords, the Conver doesn't have that feature. But still it's a slight weight on the flowers and swords point down side of things.

[Bernice]

shaveling: By the way (and strengthening thinbuddha's point, I think), hilts on the bottom will give you swords pointing down and flower stems pointing up, like in our wood-blocks. Until you get to the ten, anyway. The wood-blocks aren't for hilted swords, the Conver doesn't have that feature. But still it's a slight weight on the flowers and swords point down side of things.

......so if we decide to define 'upright' in accordance with the flower-heads, then the swords, whichever up/down way the blades are depicted, will be in their intended position and the card will be deemed upright. Yes?

I rather like this approach - think I'll go with this orientation. At last, clarity!

Many thanks for these postings.

Bee