Abrac

Has anyone seen this translation of the Sermones de Ludo Cum Aliis at Tarotpedia? I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on the comments which the author has added to some of them. For example, here are three that seem particularly bizarre to me:

La papessa: The Popess (O wretches, she who denies Christian Faith)

El papa: (O Pope why, etc., who must rule with complete holiness, also these criminals make of you their chief)

El Matto: The Fool, thus null (unless they wish)

???

jcwirish

Hmm? don't know what to say except, hmm?

Debra

As I know zero-0-zilch-nada-null Latin, I cannot comment. I'll alert the author to this thread. On such wikipedia-ish sites, it's useful to look at both the "history" and "discussion" sections.

Debra

It appears that the parenthetical comments were in the original text. See the following:

http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...lient=firefox-a (scroll down to #1)

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...lient=firefox-a

Etc.

From the first site, Trionfi:



The convention for material inserted into a quotation by a second party (for example, an editor) is to put such material in square brackets, [like so], to differentiate it from parenthetical comments by the original author, (as in this example).

Well that was exhausting.

Abrac

Yes, the comments were made by the original author in Latin and what I've given is the English translation from Tarotpedia.

Abrac

Ahh, I should have thought of this before. The one about the Popess might be directed at the Guglielmites for installing a female "Pope."

Abrac

In Kaplan vol.1 where he shows a picture of the actual sermon I don't even see El Matto but it's in his typewritten list. Maybe it's on the next page or something. I'm wondering if nisi velint (unless they wish) might instead be read 'unless they pray.' That would make more sense but I'm not sure at all what 'velint' really means.

Part of the mystery might be solved by the introduction that precedes the list. In it, the author refers to the Pope and Emperor as "the true lights of the world" and laments that they are "forced" to participate in this godless parade of characters.

The Popess (in his mind at least) represents the wretched heretics who deny the faith.

The Pope might be be read something like, "O Pope, why do these criminals (those involved with the cards) want you, who are the holiest of all, as their cheif?"

That kinda makes sense but I'd still love to hear other opinions.

kwaw

Note on translation: to describe my knowledge of latin as very poor would be a gross exagerration. The translation here was initially produced with the computor based translation software quicklatin 1.2.9e by Roger Pearson and available at www.quicklatin.com, the result was then cleaned up over many hours with reference to Collin's latin dictionary and grammar. I have also had reference to parts of the sermon that have been translated included the third section on triumps by Roger Tilley in 'Playing Cards' and Timothy Betts in his 'Tarot and the Millenium', and the Italian translation I have linked to at the bottom of the article. The end result is obviously one for which I cannot promise any degree of accuracy, I offer it for the interest of general layperson interested in the general gist of the sermon with the hope but no guarantee that any errors do not significantly alter the intended meaning. The translation obviously is not suitable for academic reference. Corrections from those with skills in latin would be greatly appreciated.

The list of card titles was translated by Marco & Ross Caldwell.

The oddest of the descriptions is perhaps that of the world [that is God the Father)...?

We may note too that the fool, is numbered 0 and in keeping with its description as nulla.

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