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That's really interesting, Bee.

It's funny, ever since I've been working with TdM I've been keeping my eyes open for potential pip systems everywhere!

Bernice

......leave no stone unturned Papercut

I love the number 4 in this song (Gospel Makers), it could be a Foundation or Basis for anything. The 9 Bright Shiners are a bit of a challange but hold a lot of potential. I'm still sorting out the suits though, and attempting do away with Elements

Bee.

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Do you mind explaining why you're trying to do away with the elements?

I've been wondering about the possibilities of doing away with elemental attributes myself. In some respects using elements for the suits has always felt a bit clunky to me. Never been entirely keen on dividing things up into emotions, the intellect, the material etc. I've been thinking about the possibility of finding another way to organise the pips (but so far this is just speculative).

SolSionnach

I like Mel's system - which uses the elements intensively. But you could think of Batons = labors, peasantry; Swords = strife, warriors; Coins = commerce, merchants; Cups = pleasures, clergy. Those are the 4 medieval classes, IIRC

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IDS with Jean Noblet and the Greenwood until May, 2010

Moonbow*

I still use elements with the cards but not necessarily one for each suit, and not the GD related ones. There are reading situations when any of the elements will fit, for example Swords sometimes do fit relationship readings (think of cupid's arrow). As my own experiences change my way of reading the pips does also and I really can't say that I have a system any more. I've often found in the past that using one system, completely discounts another and at the moment I like to jumble everything in together when reading, I don't set boundaries other than when I look at the image on the card whatever springs to mind must be relevant.

But I love the idea of using old nursery rhymes, its an inspiring way to use numbers Bee!

How many other methods for reading numbers are there, and can they be useful for reading the Tarot?

Here's a link which some may find useful:

http://www.psyche.com/psyche/qbl/co...numerology.html

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Insh'Allah Bukra Mumkin

kwaw

I first began making stories from ordinary playing cards from the age of seven when the only associations I had to make were literal, simple punning, based upon fairy tales, nursery rhymes, school ground games, friendships, bullies, nice teachers, horrible teachers. Clubs were something you joined, or knocked somebody over the head with, diamonds treasure, forever and a girl's best friend, the x that marked the chest on a pirates map, hearts things you love like trifle or a game of football, the latest idol or even perhaps your mum and dad; a spade something you dug with, hard work to be avoided if possible but something you helped out grandad with at the weekends because he loved his garden and you loved him and he couldn't look after it as much as he used too [but not too get to sentimental was still a chore and not something you looked forward too], there was jack of hearts who stole some tarts, little jack horner, jack frost, etc., etc. The point being that even as a child, let alone as an adult, the mind is a treasure house of associations and references ready to be quarried, polished and threaded on a theme.

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"I am a diviner, but a poor one."

Moonbow*

Wonderful post Kwaw!

I, unfortunately didn't come to Tarot until much later in life, but my daughter's experience of reading was her own method entirely. She made her own associations to each card by her own experiences with the people she knew and books she had read. It was remarkable to watch her read her cards with so much freedom, whilst mum was trying to get her head around the RWS system.

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Insh'Allah Bukra Mumkin

Bernice

Whilst writing this, Kwaw has posted about nursery rhymes etc. as pip meanings. What wonderful associations for a 7 year old! The imagination is a treasure house indeed - and Kwaws' was stuffed with priceless treasure!

At seven I was creating 'places', towns & locations - usually inhabited by lots of cats (we had cats). There were highways (main roads) twisty streets, secret tracks, bridges and wells, and all sorts of buildings - for everything/anything, and also deep dark woods. Fairy stories were good, but pirate adventures were better..... my ship was the roof of an outhouse.

Playing cards got my attention at around 11, they still have it.
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Why do away with the Elements? It's a personal thing.... but I have to admit that Mels' elements are the best I've come across .
I also admit that this approach doesn't adhere to specific 'historical' gaming rules or to a specific historical period/place. I'm still tinkering with it......

At present, suit-wise:-

Swords:
I don''t see that Swords are 'negative' nor used exclusively by the Upper Classes. They are a superior defense & protection implement, which can also threaten & enforce. I associate them with words like; Permit, Deny, and Confer (as when someone is knighted or promoted). But they also include artistry and patience and proceedure(s) = the blackmith.

Batons:
I see the Batons (Polo-sticks) as being robust and active. Generally orderly in that they tend to 'take sides' or are group-orientated. Responsive to a challenge - they have a healthy agression, which can also be playful and exuberant. A strong survival instinct can make them innovative &/or cunning. At root, a practical outlook with immediate concerns of home, family, and living conditions, and any favoured allegiance or belief.

Bee