Greenwood - Greenman vs. Greenwoman

Cat*

On my last day in Canada, I pulled the Greenman as my card of the day, and Mi-Shell pulled the Greenwoman. This prompted us to look at these two cards next to each other, which neither of us had done before. Here are a few of our unfinished observations, thoughts, and questions, as well as I remember them now (and as they occur to me as I'm writing this). Please chime in with your takes! :)

They seem both so similar, very different from the RWS Empress and Emperor. Both show a cauldron on a green hill above which rises a leafy face that doesn't actually show (m)any gender characteristics.

But while the Greenwoman is pretty connected to her cauldron (Mi-Shell said she sees her leaf-hands as drumming on that spiral/labyrinth in the middle) and hill, the Greenman floats above his, looking a bit forlorn.

The Greenwoman is a force of Nature, she is growth, bloom, (creative) power, and magic. The dancing tree suggests (shamanic) shapeshifting or Spirit Guides, and the head of the Uffington Horse in the center of the card only reinforces that (the head is where you go to go off into trance). Both of us had no problems understanding her.

The Greenman, however, is a different matter. The card has a lot of (male) power symbols in the bottom half: the Cernes Abbas giant with his huge club and erected penis (also in the 5 of Wands), the Dagda (Irish father-figure god) surrounded by mythological beasts on what looks like the Gundestrup cauldron with a throne in front of him. They seem like a strange contrast to the gentle face of the actual Greenman above the cauldron which actually takes up two thirds of the card and therefore probably is much more important than the small figures below. What does this card actually tell us about masculinity in the Greenwood? Is it always violent/physically overpowering, always operating on the principle of "power over" (instead of "equal power") and mostly disconnected from the Earth/Nature? Does the Emperor maybe even have to be disconnected from what's going on around him to actually BE an Emperor? Is that why he needs to summon all these mythological beasts? Because he has lost the connection to the actual local animals? Is the Greenman (leaf-face) the same as or different from the Dagda/Cernes Abbas giant? What does that tell us about the concept of masculinity portrayed by this card.

And IF the Greenman depicts the archetype of "male energy (in Nature)," how is he different from Cernunnos (whom we can see in the 9 of Stones and possibly 9 of Cups)? And who is the guy in the 9 of Wands? Are these all aspects of what amounts to more or less the same god?

And seriously, not as a rhetoric question, can someone please explain to me what "(fe)male energy in Nature" even means? Which (fe)males are we supposed to look at to find out what characteristics are being referenced here? Seahorses (where the males get pregnant)? Lionesses (who do the hunting)? Bears (where Papa Bear may be grumpy but Mama Bear can actually be dangerous, to quote Mi-Shell)? Snails (who are hermaphroditic)? And, since we are not even dealing much with animals here but with huge leafy faces, what exactly does gender mean for plants? Do human/mammal gender concepts even make sense when it comes to plants?

Honestly, whenever one of these cards show up, I groan. I have so much trouble making sense of them, especially of the Greenman. (In comparison, I have no difficulties with the RWS Empress and Emperor, and I actually like the idea of the Emperor. Are the Greenwood cards maybe influenced more by the Thoth deck? Anyone reading this who could tell us a bit more about the Emperor/Empress in the Thoth universe?

But enough of these ramblings for now. I'm sure I have forgotten many other interesting points we raised. I'm not sure, however, if any of the above makes any sense. I'd be very grateful to hear other takes on these two cards because I'm honestly pretty much stumped here. Help?
 

lark

Hi Cat great post!
love it.
To me the key to the Greenman has been the heart he so tenderly seems to be placing in the cauldron.
Nature isn't all fluffy little bunnies and sweet sweeps of gentle forests.
Nature is a bitch.
To me anyway the Greenman has to take care of all that energy...the energy of lions killing gazelles, and animals and plants dieing in droughts, ...of rain forests cut down and loss of habitats, and oil spills killing off sea life.
He is the other side of nature to me, the not so soft and fuzzy side...the side that has to be strict and hard and logical...the side that says if an lion is to live it needs to eat a gazelle...the side we don't always want to look at or think about...he's in charge of that.
So he has to offer up his heart...his emotions and just carry on...be a man...take care of business...

While the Greenwoman is in charge of the rhythm, the drum beat, the heart beat of creation.
She holds it all together, the words JUST BREATH often come into my head when I pull this card.
She is to my way of thinking also the voice of the land...an oracle that often gives us first warning when something is out of balance with nature.
Where are all the butterflies???..are there less bees???
Why didn't I hear the frogs this spring singing in the pond??
To take note that sometimes the thing you don't see carries the biggest message.

So my little contribution to the the Greenman and Greenwoman...or what they have come to mean to me in our time togther so far.
 

Cat*

lark said:
To me the key to the Greenman has been the heart he so tenderly seems to be placing in the cauldron.
[...]
He is the other side of nature to me, the not so soft and fuzzy side...the side that has to be strict and hard and logical...the side that says if an lion is to live it needs to eat a gazelle...the side we don't always want to look at or think about...he's in charge of that.
So he has to offer up his heart...his emotions and just carry on...be a man...take care of business...
Thanks for putting it so clearly. This is what I meant with "Does the Emperor maybe even have to be disconnected from what's going on around him to actually BE an Emperor?" but couldn't express.

I'm also reminded of something Mi-Shell said to me in a different context about men (traditionally) having to be able to kill baby Deer pretty much anytime if it was necessary to eat.

I still struggle with my very strong belief that biology isn't (and shouldn't be) destiny on the one hand, and with my growing realization how much our physical bodies actually influence who we are and who we can become on so many levels on the other hand. But I think I'm slowly starting to wrap my head around all of this in a way that doesn't make me crazy and that doesn't require me to kill parts of myself I don't want to kill.

So,yes, the way you describe the Greenman and his job makes a LOT of sense to me.

lark said:
While the Greenwoman is in charge of the rhythm, the drum beat, the heart beat of creation.
If I look at her again with my new understanding of the Greenman, I'm also thinking she can be a force that is quite overwhelming. Like a thicket of brambles or Japanese knotgrass, a tsunami wave, or a volcano eruption. Those things aren't destructive in and of themselves, they just seem that way to us because they happen where we live. (Someone once said that the difference between a natural catastrophe and a force of nature is the proximity of humans.) I can also relate that back to a mother archetype which can end up being overbearing and smothering - but still out of the best intentions. Heck, you could even argue that she might be about the growth of cancer cells: They grow in wild abundance and by that "unintentionally" (if we want to assume intention in cells for a moment) and very unfortunately harm or kill their host if they aren't stopped.

So if Greenwoman is wild growth in all directions, Greenman would be the limiting, containing/contained force that is needed to keep everything in balance (and vice versa). They both are capable of killing and causing destruction, but they are also both necessary to ensure life goes on. Do you know what I mean?

I'm sorry if this sounds all very negative. It's not meant that way. It's just that I don't see either of the cards as only good or bad. Many people generally seem to strongly prefer either the Empress OR the Emperor, so I believe it's important to look at both of them from all sides and avoid any value judgments. Especially since these two cards are so easily tied to human gender roles.

lark said:
She is to my way of thinking also the voice of the land...an oracle that often gives us first warning when something is out of balance with nature.
Where are all the butterflies???..are there less bees???
Why didn't I hear the frogs this spring singing in the pond??
To take note that sometimes the thing you don't see carries the biggest message.
I haven't looked at her this way, but I like these approaches and will remember them. For me, the idea of "look for what isn't there" also fits with what Chesca Potter writes about the traditional unusualness of a Greenwoman with leaves growing from her mouth (= one who speaks).

lark said:
So my little contribution to the the Greenman and Greenwoman...or what they have come to mean to me in our time togther so far.
Thanks for posting your not at all little contribution! It's a very welcome perspective to hear someone who has worked with this deck for much longer than I myself have done. It's true, our meanings of a card often only come together after we've encountered them again and again in our readings (or otherwise pondered them for a long time).
 

lark

Cat* said:
Thanks for putting it so clearly. This is what I meant with "Does the Emperor maybe even have to be disconnected from what's going on around him to actually BE an Emperor?" but couldn't express.

I'm also reminded of something Mi-Shell said to me in a different context about men (traditionally) having to be able to kill baby Deer pretty much anytime if it was necessary to eat.
So true, things often have to be sacrificed for the greater good...and someone has to do the dirty work.
So the horse breaks a leg..in past times Dad had to go out to the barn with the rifle...even if it was HIS favorite horse.

Cat* said:
I still struggle with my very strong belief that biology isn't (and shouldn't be) destiny on the one hand, and with my growing realization how much our physical bodies actually influence who we are and who we can become on so many levels on the other hand. But I think I'm slowly starting to wrap my head around all of this in a way that doesn't make me crazy and that doesn't require me to kill parts of myself I don't want to kill.

So,yes, the way you describe the Greenman and his job makes a LOT of sense to me.


If I look at her again with my new understanding of the Greenman, I'm also thinking she can be a force that is quite overwhelming. Like a thicket of brambles or Japanese knotgrass, a tsunami wave, or a volcano eruption. Those things aren't destructive in and of themselves, they just seem that way to us because they happen where we live. (Someone once said that the difference between a natural catastrophe and a force of nature is the proximity of humans.) I can also relate that back to a mother archetype which can end up being overbearing and smothering - but still out of the best intentions. Heck, you could even argue that she might be about the growth of cancer cells: They grow in wild abundance and by that "unintentionally" (if we want to assume intention in cells for a moment) and very unfortunately harm or kill their host if they aren't stopped.

So if Greenwoman is wild growth in all directions, Greenman would be the limiting, containing/contained force that is needed to keep everything in balance (and vice versa). They both are capable of killing and causing destruction, but they are also both necessary to ensure life goes on. Do you know what I mean?

I'm sorry if this sounds all very negative. It's not meant that way. It's just that I don't see either of the cards as only good or bad. Many people generally seem to strongly prefer either the Empress OR the Emperor, so I believe it's important to look at both of them from all sides and avoid any value judgments. Especially since these two cards are so easily tied to human gender roles.


I haven't looked at her this way, but I like these approaches and will remember them. For me, the idea of "look for what isn't there" also fits with what Chesca Potter writes about the traditional unusualness of a Greenwoman with leaves growing from her mouth (= one who speaks).
No it doesn't sound negative....
If anything the study of the Greenwood deck has made me realise even more how the earth does look at us as just puny humans...LOL.
No different than an ant or an elephant...and is just going about it's business of being...earth.
Our adding emotion to what happens makes it a disaster....from another perspective it is quite beautiful.
And so to the Greenman and Greenwoman are just going about their business...being green...
The Greenwoman as you said above can be to my way of thinking overwhelming...but it is just her nature.
Given the chance with humans out of the way she would once again over take the earth with plants and animals and within a very short time there would be no trace of us left.
For some reason this though always makes me supremely happy!
It's her driving force to do that...and nothing stops her.
Ever see a little plant coming up through a thick cement side walk...that's her..:)


Cat* said:
Thanks for posting your not at all little contribution! It's a very welcome perspective to hear someone who has worked with this deck for much longer than I myself have done. It's true, our meanings of a card often only come together after we've encountered them again and again in our readings (or otherwise pondered them for a long time).
Oh, you're welcome, my pleasure...I love this deck because it has no bounderies..except the ones nature gives it....
 

Faolainn Storm

Cat* said:
If I look at her again with my new understanding of the Greenman, I'm also thinking she can be a force that is quite overwhelming. Like a thicket of brambles or Japanese knotgrass, a tsunami wave, or a volcano eruption. Those things aren't destructive in and of themselves, they just seem that way to us because they happen where we live. (Someone once said that the difference between a natural catastrophe and a force of nature is the proximity of humans.) I can also relate that back to a mother archetype which can end up being overbearing and smothering - but still out of the best intentions. Heck, you could even argue that she might be about the growth of cancer cells: They grow in wild abundance and by that "unintentionally" (if we want to assume intention in cells for a moment) and very unfortunately harm or kill their host if they aren't stopped.

So if Greenwoman is wild growth in all directions, Greenman would be the limiting, containing/contained force that is needed to keep everything in balance (and vice versa). They both are capable of killing and causing destruction, but they are also both necessary to ensure life goes on. Do you know what I mean?

I'm sorry if this sounds all very negative. It's not meant that way. It's just that I don't see either of the cards as only good or bad. Many people generally seem to strongly prefer either the Empress OR the Emperor, so I believe it's important to look at both of them from all sides and avoid any value judgments. Especially since these two cards are so easily tied to human gender roles.
I just had to say, thank you for this. This is a really profound idea, and is something that I have been hovering around the edges of for some time, but have not been able to put into words. You have really captured something important - not just about these two cards, but about the deck as a whole.

I also think it is important that these two cards are not assigned to either the red or white polarity. They are not one or the other but beyond this distinction. And the importance of their position at Misummer - the sun has reached its peak and from here it will wane, until it reaches farthest point and will then return. So the Greenwoman (as growth) represents the waxing side and the Greenman (as limitation) represents the waning. And this day, the day the stand together is the balance point - neither one nor the other.

And then there is the aspect that without one the other could not exist. Without growth, there is nothing to limit and nothing at all; without limitations, growth is meaningless, and must eventually starve itself to death. On their own, each leads ultimately to death, but together they balance each other out to create a long-term existence.

Thank you for starting this discussion. It has given me much food for thought.

FS

ETA: Just a thought. Have you tried comparing these two to the Midwinter pair - Hermit and Justice? Perhaps the Hermit represents the farthest point of limitation, and Justice the beginning point of growth. As compared to the Greenwooman as the farthest point of growth, and the Greenman the beginning point of limitation.

I really love the intricate interconnections of this deck. Ever card is connected to ever other card through a complex web of interactions. Just like life, really.
 

Cat*

Faolainn Storm said:
I just had to say, thank you for this. This is a really profound idea, and is something that I have been hovering around the edges of for some time, but have not been able to put into words. You have really captured something important - not just about these two cards, but about the deck as a whole.
Why, thank you! *blush*

Faolainn Storm said:
I also think it is important that these two cards are not assigned to either the red or white polarity. They are not one or the other but beyond this distinction.
I'll have to dig out the thread where you wrote about red/white to be able to understand what you mean here. Or, if you like, you could say more about the difference between the red/white polarity and the Greenman/Greenwoman. :)

Faolainn Storm said:
And the importance of their position at Misummer - the sun has reached its peak and from here it will wane, until it reaches farthest point and will then return. So the Greenwoman (as growth) represents the waxing side and the Greenman (as limitation) represents the waning. And this day, the day the stand together is the balance point - neither one nor the other.
Oh, that's a great observation! It's also the only point in the Wheel of the Year structure where there is no distinction made between the inner and outer cards but both Greenman and Greenwoman stand next to each other in the same spot.

Faolainn Storm said:
And then there is the aspect that without one the other could not exist. Without growth, there is nothing to limit and nothing at all; without limitations, growth is meaningless, and must eventually starve itself to death. On their own, each leads ultimately to death, but together they balance each other out to create a long-term existence.
Exactly!

I wondered if the Greenman could be described as the gardener when the Greenwoman is wild growth. He would be, as far as gardeners weed out and cut back and generally limit the growth in their gardens to achieve a beautiful balance in the end. (The planting and fertilizing aspect of gardening, however, would be the Greenwoman again.) Do you think this analogy makes sense?

Faolainn Storm said:
ETA: Just a thought. Have you tried comparing these two to the Midwinter pair - Hermit and Justice? Perhaps the Hermit represents the farthest point of limitation, and Justice the beginning point of growth. As compared to the Greenwooman as the farthest point of growth, and the Greenman the beginning point of limitation.
No, I haven't compared these cards yet. But I really like the idea of looking across the Wheel for all the opposite positions/cards and see where that leads! (Goodness, so many ideas for further thought and examination already! If this goes on - and I suppose it will - I might just have to extend my IDS once again...)

Faolainn Storm said:
I really love the intricate interconnections of this deck. Ever card is connected to ever other card through a complex web of interactions. Just like life, really.
I believe I'm slowly beginning to realize just HOW interconnected the Greenwood really is. I like it! :)
 

Mi-Shell

Greenwoman musings:

The Greenwoman:
To me this card symbolizes the Earth Mother of the Greenwood. Full of fertility and abundant growth, that has the Power to overgrow EVERYTHING, including old dross, concrete slabs and all manner of wounds inflicted by us upon our living Mother. I see the disk in her leafed hands as the sun- drum upon which she plays the pulsating rhythm of Life, the Heart beat of creation. It is to this beat, that the Tree of Life and the Dragon dance the dance of Life. The Tree as a representative of all beings currently “in a material/ actual being state" and the Dragon as a representative of all immaterial/ Beings of which we only sense their Spiritual Essence.
The cauldron of re-birth is made of Amber, the Tears of Saule
And I also see many symbols of Saule’ in the Greenwoman card:
The Baltic Sungoddess
In Baltic religion Saule' is the sun goddess who determines the well-being of all life on earth. As the full light of the sun, she is also represented by a daisy, a wheel, or a rosette.
She is often portrayed as a golden-haired woman, richly dressed in golden silk rgarb with a golden shawl and crown. She drives her chariot across the heavens, pulled by two white, golden-maned steeds., Saule is connected to the wheel. In Lithuanian, She is sometimes referred to as 'Ridolele', the rolling sun. In Latvian, there are solar songs with the refrain 'ligo', ('Ligot" means to sway), and 'rota' from 'rotat', to roll or hop. Shepherds in Lithuania consider Saule to be their only guardian and have many devotional prayers dedicated to Her. Lithuanians address Her in the morning, as She sets and at the end of harvest with other songs and rites. All spheres of traditional women's work are under Her guardianship, as are earthly fecundity and healing; and it is She who plays the kankles (a traditional, ritual, stringed instrument)."

On Winter Solstice her heavenly smith, Kalvis, wearing a red and white suit with a black belt re-made the Sun for her. Using his magic hammer he formed a golden cup to catch Saule’s tears,the liquid sunshine that solidified to Amber.
Then he accompanied Saule’ in her flying chariot pulled by 8 Reindeer, (as contrasted to her daytime steeds -)and rode over the hilltops of the pre-dawn. Saule’ threw presents of Amber and Apples over the World below as they flew across the Sky.

Does this remind you of Santa, Rudolph and the presents?


Out of The Greenwoman’s cauldron all Life emerges. This may be, why Chesca put a Sheila-na-gig as its central decore. However, the Sheila-na-gig most likely is a design originating from the 11th century:
You better all study the wiki entry, as it is toooo loooong to copy into here....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila-na-gig