The Mary-El Tarot: A whole new level of Tarot?

But I think it IS a new level!

Minotauro said:

it is beautifull and deep , but saying its a whole new level is a bit too much , as great as her research is , it would be hard to top the decades of added studies of the thoth and rider waite , not the mention the collective knowledge of the golden dawn. and the centuries of the marseilles not to mention the countless ways it can be read.


in the art and symbolism , it is probably better than the RWS , but the thoth also has sacred geometry , several mythologies , and all that.


we should make a diferentiation between new system and new level.

Click to expand...

Zezina wasn't implying that the Mary El is better or "topping" or competing with the Thoth or the RWS. I don't suppose there's much point in getting competitive. But as a massmarket, mainstream deck published in 2012 I think it sets itself apart, and not solely because of the quality of the art.

I cannot speak for Zezina but from what I know of the Mary El (having read the book and played with the deck for almost a month I think now) is that it makes many decks (not the Thoth or the RWS etc as they are way too entrenched in their own traditions) look insubstantial. Her system feels watertight and her vision steamrollers over all the rehasing that tarot is wont to do.

[cross posted with Zezina]

I love the deck. I think it has depth and I think it has vision. I think it is very sexual and it feels slightly frenzied. An odd word to use, but it does feel frenzied. As if the self had the courage to let go.

Some people may find it easy to face, other may back away, but it does feel as though it has a wildness, something that you can't quite rein in.

I love that about it.

However, I have to say there is a point - around the middle of the suits - that the cards become quite difficult. I have difficulty with most pip cards between 5 and 8 in all the suits. I still do even after reading the book. I wonder if it is a losing of the momentum of the suit? I cannot put my finger on it. I have read the book, tried intutition, thought long and hard but the fives especially leave me stumped. And the sixes. I keep trying because I think the deck is worth hammering at. But it is the first time that the Courts don't frazzle my brain in a deck and the pips do.

But there is a part of me that is up for a deck that might - just might - knock the big decks off their pedestal. We have to keep thinking that there is a chance that a writer comes along who is better than Shakespeare. Otherwise what's the point of creating? I think one day a deck could come along and oust the others and actually be better. It could happen. We have to be open-minded and not just always fall back on the already canonised. There's no reason why somebody in our lifetime can't create something seriously enduring. Also; a question; how long did the Golden Dawn actually last? And yet how many decades has tarot been given serious study now? There's no reason why what has been reached now in terms of tarot understanding is deeper and more substantial and longer lasting than what the GD achieved in not-that-many years. I just don't find the collective knowledge of the Golden Dawn particularly unassailable.

The artwork is superb but there are many cards that simply don't mesh with my understanding of traditional tarot. Tarot by it's very nature has a very structured design and has for several hundred years. That's one of the things which differentiates it from an oracle or fortune telling deck (This was the same problem I had with the Silicon Dawn deck). I like parts of the deck and other parts the artist has truely taken her deck out of the traditional definition of "tarot".

So yes...this deck has transitioned to a different style or type of tarot deck/oracle! Is this good or bad for tarot? I don't know, but there is one constant in life and that is change. How we accept change is up to each of us.

I also have to mention something that bothers me with this deck and that would be its dark undertone. There's something almost perverted or uncomfortably dark that has been dredged up from the artist's soul that she has imparted in some of her paintings. We all have this dark nature within us and many great artists are able to utilize it effectively, but I really wish it wasn't part of this deck! (Just my views at the moment - I reserve the right to change my mind about anything at any time! So please don't come down too hard on me.)

Le Fanu said:

However, I have to say there is a point - around the middle of the suits - that the cards become quite difficult. I have difficulty with most pip cards between 5 and 8 in all the suits. I still do even after reading the book. I wonder if it is a losing of the momentum of the suit? I cannot put my finger on it. I have read the book, tried intutition, thought long and hard but the fives especially leave me stumped. And the sixes. I keep trying because I think the deck is worth hammering at. But it is the first time that the Courts don't frazzle my brain in a deck and the pips do.

Click to expand...

Le Fanu, I personally, right now, (after just a few weeks with the deck) I "see" the 5's sort of as the center, the still point of the suit - what we normally see in the aces. Then it goes - from the 5's down 4, 3, 2, 1, to one extreme and again from the 5's then 6, 7, 8, 9, to the other extreme....
Then I see the 10 as the 1 and 0 like the 4 horesmen of the apocalypse - not reallly part of the suit....
- But, that is just my "working hypothesis" right now and subject to further study and learning.....

Marie does say in the book that the 5's are the furthest from the Divine. For me that was something new to consider though I suppose the idea has been there with the entire system of tarot from the beginning.

RunningWild said:

Marie does say in the book that the 5's are the furthest from the Divine.

Click to expand...

You are never away from the Divine.
You are never further away from the divine as anywhere else. the Divine is inside you, You are a part of the divine.

I see the 5 focusing their imagery on the strength of the suit.
If the 5's were the aces in a deck, you would see that easier
It is like the mid- point of a metronome.
From there it swings to either side.....

Mi-Shell said:

Le Fanu, I personally, right now, (after just a few weeks with the deck) I "see" the 5's sort of as the center, the still point of the suit - what we normally see in the aces. Then it goes - from the 5's down 4, 3, 2, 1, to one extreme and again from the 5's then 6, 7, 8, 9, to the other extreme....
Then I see the 10 as the 1 and 0 like the 4 horesmen of the apocalypse - not reallly part of the suit....
- But, that is just my "working hypothesis" right now and subject to further study and learning.....

Click to expand...

Thank you for that... What has made a big difference to me (after rereading the book this week and thinking by suit) is how the fives follow on from the fours etc-

Take the 4 of Wands; the stationary energy of the forest, creative energy moving into physical transformation.

Then the 5 is that energy with a face (a lion's face) flying through (and out of) the forest, like a fireball from the darkness. That energy made manifest. "It has direction, force and determination." (p 96)

Looking at the Cups suit; you could say that the three river tributaries in the Three of Cups flow together into the Sea and become a part of the crashing waves in the 4 of Cups.

From those crashing, frothy waves in the 4 of Cups is born the white horse of the 5 of Cups and the calm waters bubbling up from the well.

I think seeing the suits as whole is the secret; as parts of a continual narrative.

I do enjoy your warm delight in the deck

There are wonderful images and I believe the delight expressed is great o see.

I am watchimg/marking this thread to hear more.

Spring and a new lovely tarot unfolding and blooming at the same time feels good...I could see someone feeling a deep zest and their enjoyment being "a new level" personally.

I am glad the cards and book does justice-in my eyes-to the art.

Yes, a fan...if I do not use it right now, it is a study thing/timing....but I anticipate pleasure whenever I open the box...kind of like openimg a door to a garden of roses blooming all at once. Powerful, intoxicating, hardly able to compare one to the other. They are gorgeous intensity in color in every single image.

Almost better than chocolate...that is my overstatement!

Zezina said:

I've now had an opportunity to look very closely at several of the cards in The Mary-El Tarot, and to read what Marie White has written about them in her very well-researched accompanying book 'Landscapes of the abyss'.

Marie's artwork for each of these cards is talented and sure, her images fearlessly original and the presentation of her deck by Schiffer is unsurpassed.

In her writing Marie's learned understanding of Tarot, her in-depth research and her keen observation shines.

With The Mary-El Tarot, Marie has taken Tarot to a provocatively significant and, I believe, enduring new level.

*Z*

Click to expand...

Le Fanu said:

However, I have to say there is a point - around the middle of the suits - that the cards become quite difficult. I have difficulty with most pip cards between 5 and 8 in all the suits. I still do even after reading the book. I wonder if it is a losing of the momentum of the suit? I cannot put my finger on it. I have read the book, tried intutition, thought long and hard but the fives especially leave me stumped. And the sixes. I keep trying because I think the deck is worth hammering at. But it is the first time that the Courts don't frazzle my brain in a deck and the pips do.

Click to expand...

I enjoyed reading your comments (later in this thread) about the 4's and 5's...interesting observations.

Your mention of the 5's (above) reminded me of this interview with Marie, in which she talked quite a bit about the 5's--specifically, how she sees them as autobiographical. Just something else to add into the mix:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/beyondworlds/2011/11/14/marie-white-the-mary-el-tarot

I'm LOVING this deck so far; there's so much to think about! I'll admit, though, that the one card that was really eyebrow raising for me was the 10 of cups. On my first walk through the deck, I got to this card and was just like, wha......??? After reading her explanation in the book, though, I have to admit that it's an intriguing take.

Cerulean said:

Almost better than chocolate...that is my overstatement!

Click to expand...

Funny you should mention chocolate, Cerulean... I think of chocolates whenever I look at my Mary-El box that holds the cards & book!

This thread has been so helpful to me, as I began the thread after studying only some of the Mary-El Major Arcana cards. So I can approach the Minor Arcana with the additional information provided by several of you, and I know that will be really helpful.

Tarotwolf mentioned the 'something dark', and I see that too, and that dark mystique adds even more to the overall attraction of this high quality deck for me. I even find that Mary-El has some qualities almost reminiscent of a darker version of the Greenwood Tarot, but executed to a much superior level.

I believe Marie White deserves much applause for her multi-layered achievement.

My set finally arrived from Amazon, and I must say, it is impressive. The cards are even more impactful in person than they appear on Marie's website - and I think they look great on the site. Very strong, authoritative and beautifully rendered. And the packaging does them justice. It is troubling that so many of the decks have printing and lamination issues, though - I wonder why some do and some don't. Were they printed at a number of different facilities?