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dadsnook2000 
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Choices


I chose the launching of the ship as the basis for a natal chart because that was when the ship was inserted or ejected into its "life environment" of being on/in the water.

The factor that makes these Moon-to-Sun Return charts so appealing is that an accurate "time" of the day is not needed. In effect, we are dealing with a ratio of movement between the Sun (one degree per day) and the Moon (12 or 13 degrees per day). Using a noon chart for the location, our Moon can never be more than 6 degrees "off"---or within two hours of correctness. In many cases, such as with a ship launching (if that is the correct choice) the chart will be within a couple of hours of correct Moon position ---- which is a degree or so of Moon position.

For these types of charts that is easily "close enough." With the Moon and Part of Fortune moving so fast, a six degree or orb is quite useful. For predictive purposes, we can be accurate to the day, but never more than one day off. For other predictive systems, being accurate plus/minus one day is considered to be exceptional --- especially since so many predictive systems fail gloriously far more than they succeed.

All of this is beside the point relative to how the Part of Fortune is used in charts other than the natal chart. As I said, deeply considering the complexities of reviewing a natal chart is more difficult than using Return charts. I'm lazy, I like being able to dash off a chart and knowing within a minute or two just what it represents. Dave



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Old 23-04-2012 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #41
Minderwiz 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsnook2000 View Post
I chose the launching of the ship as the basis for a natal chart because that was when the ship was inserted or ejected into its "life environment" of being on/in the water.
Yes, I would have chosen that as the 'birth' though I can see arguments for the others. I rather felt that you might have gone for more than one of the possibilities from the way I read your original post but I must have put 2 and 2 together and made 5 LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadsnook2000

The factor that makes these Moon-to-Sun Return charts so appealing is that an accurate "time" of the day is not needed. In effect, we are dealing with a ratio of movement between the Sun (one degree per day) and the Moon (12 or 13 degrees per day). Using a noon chart for the location, our Moon can never be more than 6 degrees "off"---or within two hours of correctness. In many cases, such as with a ship launching (if that is the correct choice) the chart will be within a couple of hours of correct Moon position ---- which is a degree or so of Moon position.
Yes that makes a lot of sense, and when I did the various charts for the 4 events, I also took a noon 'birth' for the self same reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daadsnook2000
All of this is beside the point relative to how the Part of Fortune is used in charts other than the natal chart.
Well the Part of Fortune is used extensively in some predictive systems and I don't think we have to keep to natal all the time - though obviously the natal chart (or event chart) is the foundation of the process.

I've been trying to reproduce the chart you described in your first post - the 9 Jan 2012 Return chart. I do indeed get Fortune on the Descendant of the launch chart (it was a Full Moon that day) and Mercury is in the second House conjunct Pluto - though you describe this situation for the 23 January New Moon chart.

I got the 9 January chart by calculating the nearest transiting Moon to launch Sun return chart which gave me a date of 13 January at 03:07:17. Winding this chart back to 9 Jan but keeping the time constant, gets the chart described. However if I wind it forward to 23 Jan using the same time I don't get the Part of Fortune in the 8th (it's in the second) and of course Pluto and Mercury are now 15 degrees apart. I even tried adjusting the time for the opposition to the launch Sun which occurs a couple of days later but still no joy

I must be missing something - Help!!



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Wer meines Speeres
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Wotan, Die Walkure, Act III, Scene 3

Last edited by Minderwiz; 24-04-2012 at 08:53.
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dadsnook2000 
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Chart data for Costa Concordia


** The NATAL chart for this Italian cruise ship is July 7, 2006 at 9:45 PM, DST, Civitavecchia, Italy, 11e48 42n06. This yields an MC or 26:00 Scorpio, 2:40 Aquarius, Sun at 15:33 Cancer, Moon at 3:01 Sag.

** The Moon-to-Sun Return chart for Jan. 9, 2012 occurred at 3:20 AM using the precession corrected Tropical zodiac. Many charting software packages would show this correction by noting the Sun at its natal-Tropical position of 15:33 Cancer and the conjoining Moon at 15:38 Cancer. The Civitavecchia, Italy launch location is used. The Moon-to-Sun chart MC is at 3:09 Virgo, the Asc. is at 20:34 Scorpio.

** Advancing this Moon-to-Sun Return chart for four days to Jan. 13, 2012 yields an MC of 7:20 Virgo, an Asc. of 23:38 Scorpio. The time of this chart is 3:20:58 AM, just as it is in the Moon-to-Sun Return chart. Only the date is advanced. Of interest in this chart is the following:
=== Launch MC of 26 Scorpio at the Advanced chart's Asc of 23 Scorpio.
=== Transiting Moon at 9 Virgo conjoining the 7 Virgo MC.
=== Transiting Moon squaring the transiting Nodal axis.
=== Transiting Moon trine transiting Sun.
=== Transiting Part of Fortune at 20 Cancer opposing transiting Mercury/Pluto at 7 Cap.

Do you get these figures? Dave



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Old 24-04-2012 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #43
Minderwiz 
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Some comments and Lots for Costa Concordia


Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsnook2000 View Post
** The NATAL chart for this Italian cruise ship is July 7, 2006 at 9:45 PM, DST, Civitavecchia, Italy, 11e48 42n06. This yields an MC or 26:00 Scorpio, 2:40 Aquarius, Sun at 15:33 Cancer, Moon at 3:01 Sag.
Well this dispels much of my confusion, as you are using the date, place and time of the christening ceremony when Eva Herzagova was supposed to break a bottle of champagne against the ship's bow (it reportedly failed to break). Although I have a time of 10:30 pm for this event (taken from the press release of the ship builders

http://www.fincantieri.it/cms/data/b...ws/000066.aspx

It's quite possible that things did not run according to plan and the ceremonies started much before 10:30 anyway.

The actual launch took place on September 2 2005 in Genoa, and this was 'when the ship was inserted or ejected into its "life environment" of being on/in the water.'

http://www.fincantieri.it/cms/data/b...ws/000193.aspx

The September 2004 launch included at the very least a blessing from the Archbishop of Genoa and a 'godmother' so there were two ceremonies involved in bringing the ship to it's maiden voyage.

As you said you were using the launch time, I used a noon chart for 2 September 2005, at Genoa as my 'natal' chart for the ship. This of course would also affect the later return charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadsnook2000
** The Moon-to-Sun Return chart for Jan. 9, 2012 occurred at 3:20 AM using the precession corrected Tropical zodiac. Many charting software packages would show this correction by noting the Sun at its natal-Tropical position of 15:33 Cancer and the conjoining Moon at 15:38 Cancer. The Civitavecchia, Italy launch location is used. The Moon-to-Sun chart MC is at 3:09 Virgo, the Asc. is at 20:34 Scorpio.
I tried this both unprecessed and precessed. The Tropical chart is a close match but when I tried the precessed chart, I got a result that was 2 days out. I put that down to errors in Solar Fire (or at least what it's doing is not what I expect it to do). Given that the date is less than 6 years from the christening, the difference would be less than 6 minutes of arc (as your post implies) and therefore a small difference in MC and Ascendant. 0 Virgo 45 and 18 Scorpio 48 respectively. Is this difference crucial to your analysis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadsnook2000

** Advancing this Moon-to-Sun Return chart for four days to Jan. 13, 2012 yields an MC of 7:20 Virgo, an Asc. of 23:38 Scorpio. The time of this chart is 3:20:58 AM, just as it is in the Moon-to-Sun Return chart. Only the date is advanced. Of interest in this chart is the following:
=== Launch MC of 26 Scorpio at the Advanced chart's Asc of 23 Scorpio.
=== Transiting Moon at 9 Virgo conjoining the 7 Virgo MC.
=== Transiting Moon squaring the transiting Nodal axis.
=== Transiting Moon trine transiting Sun.
=== Transiting Part of Fortune at 20 Cancer opposing transiting Mercury/Pluto at 7 Cap.

Do you get these figures? Dave
I was doing the same process last night of advancing the chart by whole days but keeping the time constant. As I was using a different "launch" chart, that would explain why I did not get the same results. On my retry, using a non-precession corrected version, I get results very similar to yours but with one major exception - the Transiting Part of Fortune is at 4 degrees Aries, and so is not opposed by Pluto/Mercury. The time for the non-precessed chart is 04:11:56 a difference of 50 minutes approximately.

Possible reasons seem to be:

Software errors - but casting a chart directly for the same time produces an error of only half a degree in the Moon's position and I also tried casting a chart for the 03:20:58 time, it still gives a POF at 6 degrees Aries.

You are using a POF that uses the same computation for day and night charts. This does indeed put the POF in Cancer, at 10 degrees (a closer opposition than your post suggests).

Incidentally As I use a nocturnal Fortune (hence the 6 degrees Aries), this places the Lot of Spirit at 10 Cancer (hence my reallisation that you were using the same formula for both night and day). Spirit reflects our decisions and choices and their impact on our lives. The detour was the decision of the captain and it certainly impacted on the lives of the ship and all those aboard. If I had used whole sign houses, the opposition would be in the third to ninth houses (overseas travel invoved) and the Lot of Nemesis would be in the eighth House of death. Which is ruled by Mercury and Lord 8 opposes the Lot of Spirit - Do we really need Pluto? Obviously your answer would be yes and there's a case for arguing that Pluto strengthens(?) Lord 8.

In the 10:30 pm Christening chart, which I had previously drawn up, The Lot of Nemesis lies on the cusp of the eleventh House - the house of Friends, and reputedly the 'detour' ordered by the Captain was not only for the people of the island, but also a friend who lived there. Mercury rules the fourth House - the end of the matter.

Astrology really does produce some interesting viewpoints, no matter what approach is used.

Edited to add:

If the launch chart of 2 September 2005 is used (sadly a noon chart as no specific time is given). The 'natal' Sun is at 10 degrees Virgo - the Moon to Sun return occurs on the 13th January the day of the wreck. Almost the same angles hold in the return chart as in the launch chart. As the return time is 03:07:17 the chart is very similar to the return chart for the 'Christening' with an Ascendant of 15 Scorpio (the launch Ascendant is 8 Scorpio)'

I'll have a look at this pair of charts later when I'm back from cat sitting for my daughther


.



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Minderwiz

Wer meines Speeres
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Wotan, Die Walkure, Act III, Scene 3

Last edited by Minderwiz; 24-04-2012 at 21:20.
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Minderwiz 
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The Lots of Costa Concordia


Firstly some will be asking which of the two 'natal' charts (the launch and the christening) is the correct one to use. This is not an easy question to answer, my thoughts are that both charts are valid and make useful contributions to examining the events leading to the fate of this ship. In the past both events coincided with someone naming the ship and smashing the champagne on it's bow, leading to the launch. For Concordia, they were separate events, separated by 10 months, but the two actons of naming and launching are important in the fortunes of the ship. It might also be good to know when the keel was laid, but I can't find a date for that.

For the analysis below I've used whole sign houses,

The September 2005 launch chart, has 8 Scorpio 28 rising, and both Fortune and Spirit are in the first House. So they could not be better placed. However Mars is in detriment in Taurus and is also Peregrine - they may be well placed but their ruler is highly debilitated in essential dignity but is angular in the seventh, opposing both Lots and te Ascendant. Of the other lots,Victory is in the twelfth ruled by Venus, Exaltation is in the eighth ruled by Mercury, Courage is in the sixth ruled by Mars and Nemesis is in the third ruled by Saturn. Three of the lots are in unfortunate places and the remaining one is in the cadent third ruled by Saturn who is in his detriment in Leo and placed in the 10th House. The third is associated with routine trips and voyages and the tenth with work and career. So Nemesis may come whilst on a routine voyage as part of career duties.

I did the return chart quicky before leaving this morning and double checking I'd used my location for the return chart not Genoa (the launch place) this pushes the Ascendant to 29 Scorpio 27, an unfortunate degree. Using Whole Sign houses, Scorpio is still the first house, Therefore Mercury is the ruler of the eighth, and the bringer of Nemesis. Mercury itself opposes the Lot of Spirit. Mercury is in the cadent third House of routine voyages and is peregrine. Saturn in the twelfth rules the lots of Victory and Exaltation in the fourth House of the End of the Matter Although Venus is Lord 12, Saturn is Almuten of the twelfth. and Venus is in the fourth conjunct the Lot of exaltation (and in Hellenistic terms, conjunct both of these Lots). So Exaltation and Victory are aflicted by Lord 12 and by are ruled by the Almuten of the twelfth.

Finally Fortune itself is in the sixth, (an unfortunate place) and is ruled by Mars in the eleventh House of Friends. As Ascendant ruler, Mars signifies the ship, it's crew and passentegers - why did they run aground - because the captain (the human personification of the ship) chose to display the ship to a friend. Fortune is squared by Mercury (Lord 8) and the Sun in Detriment in Aquarius. The Sun rules the tenth House of career and work!.

Thus the message of the 'natal' chart - that there was a threat from engaging in routine voyages in the course of work and career, is echoed in the Return chart cast for the day that it capsized.
Attached Images
File Type: png Cozta Concordia Laun.png (43.4 KB, 0 views)



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Wotan, Die Walkure, Act III, Scene 3

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Old 25-04-2012 Limited time only: Chat live with a Tarot reader now and get 50% off!     Top   #45
Minderwiz 
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Chris Brennan Article


I've just been reading Chris Brennan's article (free download from

http://www.hellenisticastrology.com/articles/

It's entitled 'The Theoretical Rationale Underlying The Seven Hermetic Lots'

He argues firstly:

The Hellenistic and Medieval Astrologers didn't use the algebraic calculation method for Lots (as in the Morinus Lots editor) but calculated them geometrically, e.g. For the Lot of Fortune by Day they measured the distance from Sun to Moon and then measuring out the same distance from the Ascendant in the same zodiacal direction. So if the Sun is at 10 Gemini and the Moon at 15 Cancer that's 35 degrees in the direction of the signs. If the Ascendant is 20 Capricorn, we add 35 degrees to that going in the direction of signs and end up at 25 Aquarius. If the Sun had been at 15 Cancer and the Moon at 10 Gemini the distance would still be 35 degrees but this time against the direction of the signs. So we would measure 35 degrees in that direction from the Ascendant and end up at 15 degrees Sagittarius.

This process holds for all lots

Secondly

If we look at the Lot of Fortune we measure from the sect Lord to the luminary out of sect - Sun to Moon by day and Moon to Sun by night. He says that this has Gnostic and Hermetic importance because we are measuring from the body that is giving light (Sun by Day, Moon by night) to the body that's obscured - i.e. we are moving from light to darkness. The physical world is imperfect and is associated with darkness rather than the pure light. This accounts for the Lot of Fortune being associated with the physical body.

With Spirit we are moving in the opposite direction - from the luminary out of Sect (Moon by Day and Sun by Night) to the luminary in sect (the light) So Spirit has the connotation of moving from darkness to light and is associated with Spiritual and higher things and our ability to strive towards the light.

This knowledge could help a person realise their intellectual potential (Lot of Spirit) through actively concentrating on generating new ideas if they have a diural Lot of Spirit, whereas someone with a nocturnal Lot of Spirit might be better concentrating on receiving ideas from others and perhaps pulling them together or synthesising them - innovation or development'

Thirdly

Two of the remaining five Lots, (Eros and Victory) are calculated using the Lot of Spirit. However there's a subtle difference in the Lot of Spirit depending on whether it's a diurnal chart or a nocturnal chart. In both cases it's calculated from the luminary out of sect to the luminary in sect (which must be the dominant one of the two). In a diurnal chart the sect luminary is the Sun, in a nocturnal chart it's the Moon. But the Sun is active - it's the source of all light, whilst the Moon is passive - it only reflects the Sun's light. So people with Spirit in a diurnal chart are likely to be more action oriented in the things that Spirit represents (such as choice of career) whilst people with Spirit in a nocturnal chart are likely to be more passive.

Fourthly

With the Lots of Eros and Victory which use the Lot of Spirit, in a diurnal chart the measurement is from the Lot to the planet (Venus or Jupiter respectively) - Spirit is mimicking the emitting or radiating nature of the Sun's energy. In a night chart the measure is from the planet to the Lot of Spirit, mimicking the receptive nature of the Moon.

We can thus treat these Lots as more active in a diurnal chart and more receptive in a nocturnal chart.

Finally

For the remaining three Lots involving the Lot of Fortune, the situation is reversed. In a diurnal chart the distance is calculated to the Moon, which is the receptive luminary and by night it is calculated to the Sun, the active or emitting luminary. Thus for the Lots of Courage, Necessity and Nemesis, the nocturnal calculations are from Lot of Fortune (mimicking the Sun) to the planet and by Day from the planet to the Lot of Fortune (mimicking the Moon).

Again the Lots can be subtly interpreted to allow for the emitting or receiving nature of the Lot of Fortune.



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Minderwiz

Wer meines Speeres
Spittze furchtet
durchschreite das Feuer nie!

Wotan, Die Walkure, Act III, Scene 3
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